Need some audiogon expertise


Hi all, I am having a little problem here with thin bass. I am not really sure where to start. Some help would be most apprecieated. I have heard some say tubes in preamp but i dont feel that 2 little 6922's can be causing the music to be so thin but maybe so. Heres my list of equipment.

California Audio Labs Icon/Powerboss
Audible Illusions L-1/matched pair of 6H23-EB
Aragon 4004 mkII
Sansui TU-717
Vmps Tower 2/R's
Acoustic Research 12 guage
Radio Shack fusion IC's throughout

Stand alone i've not heard of any of the components having the traits of thin bass. But obviously i have something causing this.

Room is 22 x 14 x 8. Speakers are on the short wall placed 2 1/2 feet from back wall and 3 feet from sidewalls toed in directly at my listening position which is 10 feet from speakers.

Thanks for the help.
kool39
Creeper and Sogood bring up very valid points. VMPS products tend to be capable of good bass extension but typically sound bass heavy due to the slower transient response of a passive radiator. Obviously, speaker placement is critical and i'm assuming that you've experimented in this area first. If you haven't done this, that would be the first step before you start anywhere else.

If you can't get the system to do what you want it to do after finding proper speaker placement, I would contact Brian Cheney and start looking at the tuning of the passive radiator. By changing the tuning of the drone cone via adding / removing mass, you will alter the quantity and quality of bass that you hear. It is possible that a previous owner had "fine tuned" the mass of the drone cone to better suit their personal needs / room acoustics. Since every room is different, it is possible that what worked for them sonically / acoustically may not work for you.

As to the equipment that you have, i do think that cables can make a difference and sometimes this difference can be quite noticeable. Having said that, i'm not familiar with the interconnects but the speaker cables tend to favor bass output, so those are obviously not the culprit.

As far as your CD player goes, changing tubes can / will alter the presentation and tonal balance. I would work with getting the speaker situation sorted out prior to even remotely thinking about tubes though.

Looking at your back-bone components ( preamp and amp ), i don't know the output impedance of the preamp nor the input impedance of either of them. This could come into play and might be something that you want to check into. When a component is not properly loaded, it tends to either sound overtly lean or excessively slow and murky.

As far as the amp itself goes, it should be left on at all times for best performance. Aragon's can tend to sound a tad hard & bright and slightly lean in the mid-bass ( warmth ) region if you cycle them off and on all the time. Obviously, if you can slightly soften the highs a bit ( not so much soften as "refine" ) and increase the warmth of the system, tonal balance will be slightly fuller sounding.

As far as the bass capabilities of the Aragon product line, i would stick with what you have rather than looking at a Bryston as Marakanetz suggested. The Aragon is a FAR better amp than the Bryston in terms of bass output and control. This is especially true if running at lower impedances, which if the VMPS that you have is like their other designs, probably is.

As a side note, when setting up speakers on the long wall, you tend to have a more open soundstage due to the lack of early reflections, but you also pick up some bass reinforcement from sitting in closer proximity to the rear wall. Going to a short wall placement will produce an increase in apparent high frequency content as you're now hearing a larger percentage of reflections. At the same time, you'll also lose low frequency coupling as you're probably sitting further away from the rear wall. Depending on the speaker design, one placement will work better than others. As far as personal tastes go, i normally prefer speakers on the long wall. Then again, most all of my speakers are sealed, so the added bass reinforcement that occurs in such a situation isn't as "bad" as if one were using vented ( passive radiator, ported, etc... ) designs to begin with.

Obviously, my suggestions are simply "comments" and should be taken as nothing more than a reflection of my personal tastes and observations. Others may have differing points of view. So long as you arrive at the place you want to go sonically and we ( as a group ) are able to help you do that, that is all that counts : ) Sean
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Great points made above. Speaker positioning is generally a good starting point. Your room dimensions aren't bad so that shouldn't cause too many problems. I assume you have a fairly standard room -- i.e., not too many large openings into other areas, not too many hard surfaces, a decent amount of carpeting and cushioney (is that a word?) furniture. If not, then start with the room itself, especially if it seems like the speakers are throwing out decent bass if you put your ear (or meter) right next to the woofer.

I also assume that the lean bass comes across whether you use your tuner or cd player so I wouldn't look for answers there, at least not right away. If it's easy to borrow a decent preamp, you might want to switch that out to see if it makes a difference (by the way, as Sean suggests, it may be the amp/preamp cable rather than the preamp itself if the borrowed preamp sounds better -- i.e., impedence/inductance/capacitance matching may be off). Finally, you might want to borrow other speakers and see if that makes a difference. If so, then you may have some worn parts. Visually inspect the woofer cones for tears or cracks -- if they are there, replace the cones. If everything still looks good, consider replacing the capacitors in the cross-overs as a final last resort once you determined it is the speakers.
Sean, whattafool I always mistake Aragon for Adcom i.e. finger with ...&^%$% if you know what I mean...:-)

I think you nailed it with amp/pre synergy since the output impedance of L1 is arround 2k.
FWIW if you system has an upper midrange emphasis it might lead you to believe you have reduced bass or midbass (a general lack of warmth). A couple of your components are not (IMHO) tilted toward warmth and are neutral at best, but should not cause a lack of bass. I agree with previous comments that you should investigate proper room placement of the speakers and the listening position, using a RS meter and a good test CD. If you have not already do so you should check out the various theories for room placement, such as Cardas. Rives has a nice web site. Both are good for some begining understanding and as starting points.
Moving your speakers closer to the back wall will ad some boundary reinforcement to the low end. But you could muck up the low mids and imaging. The better solution is to move the listening position so that you are sitting as close to the back wall as possible. Antinodes (the part of the waveform with the highest amount of displacement) occur at room boundaries. As long as you sit with your head no further than 1 1/4 feet from the back wall, the bass will be at a higher amplitude, and the mid to high frequency reflections from the back wall will be so short, that your brain won't be able to distinguish them from the direct sound. If you want more info I think AudioPhysics has some info on their website regarding this monitoring scheme.

you'll get much more of an effect (you can expect ± 10dB/spl below 200Hz in some rooms) with speaker/listening position placement than you ever will with cables or electronics (other than an EQ). Save your money, take a little time, and if that doesn't work, then think about altering your equipment.