Can tube amps play loudly?

"I’d like to be able to narrow down my speaker choices before I start shopping seriously, because I don’t want to waste my time or a dealer’s."

If you had to go out tomorrow and purchase a system, you could do worse than the modified Cayin's you mentioned, or either of the C-J integrated or amplifiers I mentioned - coupled with Vandersteen 2Ce Signature speakers. I have always liked these speakers as they have a wonderful ("lifelike) midrange for jazz and vocals, but still do well with rock and roll as they are a box speaker. Stereophile Class "B" for two or three or four years running; for $1675 (new, with stands) they are a real deal.

From their web-site: Vandersteen 2Ce Signature

IMPEDANCE:
7 ohms nominal 4 ohms minimum.
SENSITIVITY:
86dB with 2.83 volts of pink noise input at 1 meter on axis.
RECOMMENDED AMPLIFICATION:
40 to 160 watts per channel into 8 ohms.

Other options: Stereophile mentions the Pathos Acoustics Classic One as a Class "A" integrated amp ($2295 new) - as best I can tell it is a hybrid unit, with 70 wpc @ 8 ohms and 130 wpc at 4 ohms. Any of the Musical Fidelity units seem to be good - they are solid state but more tube sounding than most (I am told). Their X-150 is class "B" rated and would do well with Magnepan MG12's or 1.6's - but I don't think a planar speaker is the way you want to go, based on what you have said.

"The Absolute Solund" lists the Maggies and Vandersteens listed above as "Best Buys" in their price categories; also listed under integrated amplifiers are the Musical Fidelity X-150 and Audio Research VSi55 ($2995 new, less than $2000 used (?)).

I don't ever see Jolida mentioned anywhere;I expect they are just good but not great - as stock units. I talked to the owner of Underwood Hi-Fi in Atlanta briefly and he seems quite competent - he would sell you a new, with full warranty, Jolida 502b with mods for $1600 plus shipping (www.underwoodhifi.com). Or, there are used Jolidas on Agon.

Hope this is helpful; to summarize, an audition of a decent tube integrated amp with Vandersteen 2Ce Signatures would be a great place to start. If you like the speakers, you can then find a tube amp to suit...

Cds9000, I'm a budget-minded person who opted for the modded Cayin from Bizzy Bee about a year ago. I can tell you that the 30 wpc it produces seem louder and more efficient than the 65 ss wpc my Yamaha receiver produced. I've tried a variety of speakers in my living room and the Cayin plays them all as loudly as my ears can tolerate. Unless you plan to set up your 2-channel system in an auditorium, I think you'll be pleased as can be with a modded Cayin.

Phew, that's a lot of info. I'll start at the top:

First, my budget is about $1500 for an amp. Delsfan, I should've been more clear. Integrateds are what I'm looking at, not stand-alone amps. I'm also looking to spend about $2000 on speakers.

Soliver, thanks for the link. That's exactly the kind of figures I was looking at to answer my intial question.

Dlr/Dan, you touched on something that I was going to ask later, but since you brought it up, I'll ask now. Tube pre-amps with a SS amp seem to offer the best of both worlds. Obviously, there's a compromise by going this route. What is it?

Winegasman, thanks for the direct comments on the Bizzy Bee. What kind of speakers do you have, and what type(s) of music do you listen to the most?

Another question: I've heard people who claim to have had great success pairing Def Techs to tube amps. The theory goes that their self-powered bass section provides all the bottom end you'll ever need, while freeing up your amp to power the bipolar section. Anyone have any direct experience with this?

One more note to help you guys understand what I'm after in terms of sound. I heard a pair of Totem Arros paired to a small SimAudio amp, and I LOVED the sound.

Sorry to be "Johnny 10,000 Questions" guys, but I really do appreciate all the info. See, when you're in my position (relatively young, lacking in personal experience with true high-end, and on a tight budget) your choice of internet forums is limited. I can go to the average-joe sites and listen to them talk about how great their Best Buy Kenwood receivers and Yamaha speakers are, or I can come play with the big boys and actually learn something. Thanks for all the help.

-Chris

I've owned both tube and SS amps. I think the Cayin is in the 30-35 wpc range.

As some others have mentioned; GENERALLY a 30wpc tube amp as opposed to a 30wpc SS amp will play louder. They both only have 30wpc,no getting around this. But the way a tube amp "clips" allows it to play louder before distortion and clipping sets in. So effectively the tube amp has more usable watts. Most say 1 tube watt equals 2-3 SS watts. So the Cayin probably would be more comperable to a 60 wpc SS amp.

Second on your question about DB's. Swampwalker was talking about speaker effeciency. As he mentioned those in the 89-92db range should be able to play plenty loud.

A speaker with 89db will put out 89db sound pressure at 1 meter. A 92db speaker 92db at the 1 meter range.

Hopefully this may help: A 3db increase in sound pressure is a doubling of the volume. So the 92db speaker will play twice as loud as the 89db speaker with the same 1 watt. But the same 89db speaker with the same 1 watt will be twice as loud as a 86db speaker. This again is a general rule and still dosen't tell how loud the speaker will play or how difficult it will be to drive.

The catch though is that as humans we don't usually perceive a doubling in volume until it reaches near the 10db range. So the 92db speaker will not sound like double the volume though it actually is.

Bottom line after all this is; yes the Cayin should be able to play plenty loud if the room isn't too large and the speakers are reasonably effecient.

Cds9000, I have used the Cayin with Klipsch RB-5IIs, B&W 602.3s, Morel 403.5s, and I in-home demoed the Meadowlark Eagles. The Klipsches sounded the best. I put that in the past tense because 3 nights ago my long-awaited GMA Callistos arrived...and my year-long speaker search is DONE! I will post about the Callistos soon, but, for now, let's just say that they excel at both voicing individual instruments and maintaining engaging rhythm. They also cover the bottom end better than any speaker with a 6" woofer has a right to. Roy J. sure did his homework for this speaker. Anyway, I listen to a wide assortment of music -- am spinning Ahmad Jamal as we speak, just had Beethoven's Violin Concerto on, before that was spinning Indigo Girls, Dakota Staton, Paul Simon, various modern woodwind quintets, the Beatles, Santana, Miles and Monk at Newport. No hiphop, no trance, no techno though. Given your budget, I have to say that the Cayin and the Callistos deserve a serious listen. Good luck. Enjoy the search.