Your opinion on the evolution of amps since 70s?

i;m sorry justin, the hafler was indeed a mediocre studio grade amp, more than a hi-fi piece. i was never a fan of the ar3, but as for the large advent, i have a vintage pair that will go toe to toe with most of the speakers you've named, provided it is used with a any powerful, clean amp ss or tube. ponderous and muddy in the bass, only if 'it' is in the recording. sort of a bigger, rowdier LS 3/5 or epi 100. it is more neutral than my gradient revolutions. many of the ss brands you have mentioned built their best stuff in the 1980's. the marantz and kenwood ss heyday was much earlier. i currently own mac ss and tube gear (as well as some other odds and ends)but even a vintage mac mc7300 is more neutral than the the models that replaced it. i currently have an mc602 (wish i still had the 7300). my mc275 II is nice but its no marantz 8b. even the marantz 8b knock offs and clones don't quite get there. somewhere along the line, we all forget that we enjoyed music more when we were just looking for something decent to play it on. the marketplace today is getting smaller by the minute. the inventory in a typical classical music dept turns less than one time a year today. jazz as a catagory(without nora jones)makes up less than 5% of music sales. artists are being dropped from major labels daily. meanwhile some guy wants to sell us a pair of loudspeakers that cost $10,000 and are sure to favor one catagory of music over another. i can see the ad now......'great for acoustic jazz and female vocals' GOD HELP THE AUDIOPHILE-me included

Jay, I wished I had the chance to hear real vintage tube amps. My experience started with Conrad-Johnson, passing through Audio Reaserch and ending with BAT today. I alternately use a solid-state amp in my system as well.

I think the obscene price increase in audio started tentatively in the mid-80s with cartridges prices that jumped from around $100-$200 to $500 and more. This price surge really took off in the mid-90s with cables (from $50-100 to $500-1,000 per pair). After that, $10,000 amps and $20,000 speakers became the norm rather than the exception. Most audio hobbyists and enthusiasts cannot afford today's prices of high-end audio.

I think the demise of the music business as we knew it started when they proclaimed at the birth of CD that its digital sound was "perfect." It's been downhill ever since. The Internet is just the straw that broke the camel's back. It's depressing to go to any music section of Border's, or worse, Barnes & Noble: it's deserted most of the time. Being an engineer, I like the convenience of the Internet and MP3; the heavily compressed sound is OK on my iPod and in my car, but it is unacceptable in my home system.

The music scene is on the verge of a dramatic change. I hope there is a place for lovers of both great music and great sound like us in the new scene but I am not holding my breath.

I think I'm going to play my Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon LP to cheer me up!

Both transistor amplifiers and tube amplifiers have seen plenty of evolution since the 50s , 60s and 70s. I have had a hands on experience with both as I ran a consumer electronics repair shop for a number of years during and after college.

With respect to conventional transformer coupled tube amps: the big thing that has changed in pentode based class AB amps is increased filter capacitance in the power supplies! I have rebuilt a number of H/K Citation IIs over the years (one of the very best vintage amps, BTW). Its weakness was its power supply and properly fixed up with new parts and boosted supplies keeps up quite nicely with its modern counterparts. Mind you, to obtain such an amp and fix it up properly will cost you as much as a new amp!

Triode power amplifiers have returned, from the grave we thought they went to during the 30s or maybe during the War. They came back because triodes sound better then pentodes, despite their inefficiencies. High end cares not a whit about that but does care a lot about getting closer to the truth of our recordings. Obviously, single-ended amps reappeared too.

Balanced line applications now exist in tube embodiments and in the home. This too is different and better.

OTLs got reliable and competetive with other amplifier technologies. OTLs were neither reliable or practical in the 70s.

Coupling capacitors, resistors and filter caps have all improved immensely. Just rebuilding a vintage amplifier with newer parts using today's superior materials (non-inductive metal films, Teflon, poloystyrenes, OFCopper, etc, etc.) reaps big rewards. Modern materials sound much better due to better specs (including greater purity).

With respect to transistor amps, they too sound better due to superior materials and better power supply bypassing techniques. High power amplifiers that are also stable are rather commonplace now rather then the exception. Heatsink technologies have improved, thermal feedback means have improved and improved semiconductor devices are commonplace that were only theoretical in the 70s.

Prices have also gone up, but if you figure what inflation has done to the US economy- lets explore that for a moment:

In 1967, a near state of the art system, maybe all Marantz tube gear with a nice set of Dayton-Wright electrostatics, Revox recorder and Empire turntable would have set you back around $3,000, which was about the price of a decent car. Nowadays you pay $20,000 for the same performance (in round numbers) and that gets you entry-level transportation. High End audio today is a good deal.

Another way to look at it: Design a nice,decent box (but not a super fancy one), install a couple of $4.00 volume controls, a couple of switches and some connectors. Now you have a stereo passive volume control. Include the cost of labor to build it, the rent to house the unit while it is being built, dealer markup, shipping and so on (don't forget to include a wage for yourself...) and see how much a simple thing like that has to cost! You are doing exceptionally well or *cheating* if you come up with a retail price of less then $500.00. And that is a passive setup with cheesy controls and no active circuitry!! High end today is a screaming deal. I would not complain about the costs unless you have already walked the talk and seen the expenses that can be involved!

I believe there is some evolution from early amps to the current models today but not nearly as much as with early digital source components. I own an older Threshold Se series amp and had an interesting conversation with an well known amp designer once. I mentioned that I had thoughts of upgrading to a new amp and he suggested that I not be in too much of a hurry to upgrade yet as my older Threshold could still hold it's own against many of the current designs today.

Thanks Atmasphere for a most lucid and informative discussion. That's the kind of response I was hoping for when I started this thread. I've always known that ss amps are better today than they have ever been but now I learn a great deal about tube amp's evolution as well. I agree with you that they are among the better values out there in spite of their relatively high cost.

I fully understand and agree with you that an amp that is properly designed and built with high-quality parts costs a great deal of money, especially for a small run. I still find that too many high-end amplifiers out there spend (waste?) an inordinate amount of money on cosmetics and testosterone effects. Sure, a fancy box helps sell the amp but I for one prefer the money optimally spent on the sound. I always open an amp and do the part counts whenever I can: many high-end amps are just overpriced, period.

To be fair, I think high-end amplifiers are distant second or even third when it comes to poor values—that’s really what we are talking about. Cables and cartridges are way up there on top of the overprice/poor value list with many speakers not far behind. And I won’t even mention the ridiculously priced accessories with dubious functions out there. When you see that companies like Magnapan, Martin-Logan, Vandersteen, and Thiel just to name a few—I apologize for not recalling all the worthy ones—have been able to make great sounding products at about the same price or less in constant dollars as they did 20 years ago, you begin to wonder about the prices of other speakers.

I am way off the main thrust of this thread: amplifier evolution since the 70s. But I feel that it is important to stress an important point: the larger the gap between the cost of high-end audio and mass-market audio—or should I say video?—the further the high-end market will shrink, and the higher the unit cost of high-end gears will rise. It’s a vicious circle. Let us make great products but let us not forget about values.