Coltrane. Can we talk?

Coltrane had a very advanced harmonic conception. Many other players are still catching up with his mastery of the 3 & 4 tonic systems. I would even go so far as to say he pushed Western music, harmonically, ahead a little, as other players are doing today. I like his playing, and I think he was a brilliant thinker as is evident through his improvisation. He also wrote some great tunes that will imortalize him. I have a couple dozen CD's at least of his or with him on them, ( I have a big collection). BUT, having said all that, he's not one of my favorite players. How can I say that? Well, while I've learned a lot from his playing, especially how he moved between equidistant tonal centers, in my opinion his playing was lacking in areas- areas that if were developed would have made him a more well rounded master of his instrument. I'd rather listen to Joe Henderson, wow. Or for a more 'modern' player, whatever the hell that means, listen to Jerry Bergonzi or George Garzone, both of whom took a lot from Trane, but both of who have their own thing going, AND have more control over more parameters of music, and their horns.

Jay, I'm curious. What areas in your opinion were lacking in Coltrane's playing? You think Bergonzi and Garzone "have more control over more parameters of music, and their horns"????!!!! What exactly? I just don't see it(hear it) that way at all. Granted, both these guys are very fine players; but both are admittedly derivative to a certain extent. Yes, they do have their own thing; but had it not been for Coltrane's thing there would be no "thing". They are both good examples of post-Coltraneism. Not necessarily a bad thing. What's more they would be the first to admit it. One of the truely incredible things about Coltrane is that he still sounds and always will sound modern. He defined and still defines modern jazz tenor playing. I have spoken to some who had the priviledge of hearing Trane play live, and what they say is amazing. They were moved, and yes even changed emotionally, to an extent that was scary. His presence was hugely powerfull, even mystical. I understand how Coltrane's playing might be difficult for some to deal with. The power of his constantly searching sound and vibe can be overwhelming. Try getting acquainted with him through some of his gentler records. The "Ballads" album is a must. Some of the most beautifull and gentle playing one will ever hear. "With Johnny Hartman" another great one. Enjoy.

To really hear Trane at his most powerful, try "Live at the Vanguard." His interplay with Eric Dolphy is something of real lasting value. Although I am not a fan of Dolphy(his critically acclaimed "Out To Lunch" even does not suit me),there was the MAGIC at this session. This was Trane on Impulse. His Atlantic sessions are probably a better starting point. Although many of his recordings tend to lose peole, I still can't name a better sax man than he. By the way, the Adderly "In Chicago" on Mercury is hard to beat, without question;it's much better than "In New York"

You said a mouth full. Quite a critique of one of the great jazz masters. You must be an expert yourself. Can you please expand upon and explain some of your comments, in terms I might understand? What was so advanced about Coltrane's "harmonic conception"....What is a "3 & 4 tonic system", and why is it taking so many players so long to "catch up" to Coltrane's mastery of it?.....What is it to "move between equidistant tonal centers".....What, exactly, do you feel is lacking in Coltrane's playing and mastery of the instrument?...Please cite musical examples whenever possible......I'm gathering from your commentary that you are musician of some sort. That's wonderful. I can appreciate the fact that Coltrane is not your cup of tea. But I find it funny that you feel you are in a position to critique him, especially when many of the most respected musicians in jazz (Davis, Dolphy, Coleman, etc...)consider (or considered) Coltrane's music to be the high point of modern improvised music. BTW, George Russell (Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization) is probably more responsible for expanding the harmonic and melodic possibilities of modern jazz than anyone, and he actually feels that jazz just about died when Coltrane did. But I guess your studies have given you more insight (into Coltrane) than any of these other musicians might have been privy to, especially the ones who actually knew and worked with him. You must be pretty good. Please send me some MP3's of your playing, or e-mail me some of your compositions. I'd love to get a glimpse into the future of jazz. Thanks. Robert.

Frogman,
Hi. I knew I'd have some rebuttals to deal with after I wrote that this morning... ;-) As for "parameters" that were "lacking"- (perhaps 'lacking' is even too harsh a word, maybe 'missing' is a better word in this case). In my sincerely very humble opinion, there are other great tenor players that have more control over things such as tonal color, time (playing on, or ahead, or behind the beat), articulation, listening to the other musicians around them & reacting accordingly, etc. (Then again, maybe he was so moved to get the 'message out' that he felt justified in his slight sacrifice of the 'sum of the parts' philosophy.) All these things are important in my opinion in terms of being able to communicate that imperative non-verbal stuff that we listen to music for. If you go back & listen to Trane, his Main gift to us is through pushing the harmonic envelope. Which is what I love about his playing. ( I hate to say that because obviously he was such a great player and communicator emotionally, spiritually, etc.) - Maybe in order to go so far harmonically ahead of his time in his day, the 'underdeveloped' aspects of his playing were a price to be paid. (then again, obviously, it can also be attributed to "style") And actually, my favorite albums are the ones that go deeper. I do like the Ballads, Gentle Side, Johnny Harman, etc., but I think his big gift to us was the insight he gave us into tonality via tunes like Central Park West, Giant Spteps, Countdown, etc. And I love to listen to the era with Elvin & Mcoy. And the late stuff blows me away, sends a chill down my spine. I would include "Love Supreme" on my 'Deserted Island top ten list'. So, let me just clarify that, although he's not my favorite tenor player, I keep buying more of his music, already have a lot, and he ranks in my "top 5" :-)Thanks for the more friendly counter-post compared to the one I'm about to rebut. I'm afraid I've blasphemed the Church of Coltrane!! I hope I come out of this alive without being burned at the stake... Jay