Why "Cryo" anything?

Interesting discussion from everyone. It's very similar to a discussion on proving existence of God.

Group A states that God must exist because they believes it to be so. Don't ask why. Just follow their "truth".

Group B simply asked to see if it's possible to scientifically prove God's existance. And they are treated as heretic and must be casted out of group A's wonderful society.

Maybe we should have a new policy on Audiogon's tech forum.
"Don't ask. Don't tell". Just follow the gospel according to "sohpiscticated audiophile".

Anyway, I will give up for sure now.

Eric

Ejliu - you have completely mistated the argument. This discussion is not at all like religion, it is simply a discussion between those that have tried cryo treatment and hear the difference and those that have not tried it, yet demand a scientific explanation - one that is not available, at least one that satisfies the doubters. Perhaps DARPA, NASA or some other august body will form committees to study the audio applications of cryogenics in the foreseeable future and publish peer-reviewed results. I won't hold my breath.

Geoffkait, actually I think you just made Ejliu's point:

a discussion between those that have tried cryo treatment and hear the difference and those that have not tried it, yet demand a scientific explanation - one that is not available, at least one that satisfies the doubters.

Substitute in religion and you get:

a discussion between those that have tried "religion" and know it to be true and those that have not tried it, yet demand a scientific explanation - one that is not available, at least one that satisfies the "non-believers".

There is an element of “faith” in this hobby given the difficult nature of quantifying differences that are heard. I’m by no means a “if it doesn’t measure differently, it can’t sound different” guy partly because for a complex system such as an audio system, it’s not clear that enough precise measurements of all the important variables -- and there interactions -- could be accomplished, nor would it be clear (to me anyway) how exactly to interpret them. I use my ears to guide me, but I also recognize that my subjective opinions aren’t necessarily objectively true. The cryo issue (to me) is a different animal because it is such an easily investigated process. It involves (mostly) a single material (an area I have reasonable knowledge in) put through a simple thermal cycle. I’m sure Ejliu’s interest in this was for at least similar reasons?

BTW, I have cryo’d ACME silver plated outlets…they were $5 more than the non-cryo’d version.

Germanboxers: you've actually flipped the "religion argument" around; it is religious "zealots" who demand that the non-believers "get with the program" and believe in God (or they will go to hell), regardless of whether God's existence can be proven. The (religious) non-believers are (usually) not "zealous" in their non-belief, actually they may not care one way or the other at all.

Using your religion anology, are the nay-sayers in the cryo debate actually the "zealots" in this case, trying the keep the audio world safe from "pseudoscience?"

In the debate over religion/God, everyone can (in theory) make his mind up one way or the other based on personal experience - Sunday school, listening to sermons, perception of the world, etc. But the difference here is that (apparently) the naysayers in the cryo debate have made their minds up without experience of any sort. They use scientific text, in excrutiating detail (as opposed to religious text), in the attempt to prove the "heathens" must be "hearing things."

The word "faith" does not have to have the deeper (religious) connotation you suggest. For example, you might take a reviewer's comments on an audio component "on faith." I would argue the word "faith" in this sense is in no way equivalent to "religious faith."

I'll do the right thing here and offer an apology for some of my remarks. No, I wasn't serious about the brake offer. It was a response to the alleged requirement that parts must first be tempered to recieve the benefits of cryo. Normally I would take my own advice and just stop posting as the conversation degenerates. My mistake. I guess the steroid program I'm on is making me more aggressive than usual. Still, no excuse. I do still believe this thread to be a troll however. What I find frustrating is that my sense of science is that many things are observed first and the proof follows. That's what makes us unique. Our curiosity is boiled down to "I wonder why that happens?" Here we have a proposition that it can't be measured therefore it isn't happening. So many of the advances in science have been accidental and cryoing audio gear seems to be one of them. I maintain that my description of speaker cables and the evolution of their "acceptence" as a valid product proves my point. Science still cannot explain why they sound the way they do except in very basic terms. If it could, then there would be DIY instructions for making state of the art speaker cables. The MSE's here have expressed a belief that cryo'ing audio parts cannot have an affect based on their understanding of applied science. As frustratingly curious as I am about things I don't understand I would have posted the threadhead in a different way. I would have asked if anyone had a theory about why cryo'ing audio parts would make a difference in light of the indisputable, widely held fact that people do hear changes whether good or bad. Honestly, the attack by the naysayers is more along the lines of "it's in your head" which is insulting to the vast majority of people who's hearing is good enough to discern minute differences between other non-contovertial areas of audio. Why this is ignored as real is where I get my buttons pushed. Still, it's my responsibility to control myself, not yours. I'm sorry.