What is vibration isolation for?

Audiofile9, you are making this up as you go, no? Your techno babble sounds almost convincing. The problem is you have nothing quantified. Just because something is a theoretical possibility does not mean that it has any practical implications. As an analogy (for what it's worth) the world is chockfull of bacteria and viruses. Their mere presence does not signify that the carrier is diseased. My point is, and always has been, whatever turns you on. I draw the line when leaps of faith brings one to conclude that HUGE benefits can be heard from any kind of change anywhere down the line, only if one is gifted with golden ears. To my mind, assuming that there is such a gift as better quality ears allied with a superior brain capacity to resolve musical detail,it is not much of a gift since it seems to induce way more neurotic anxiety about physics and things than true musical enjoyment. I have never seen a hobby that provokes such needlesss discussion as audio. It's about enjoying music, not fretting over imagined problems and so-called solutions. I will trot out the usual question-to-end-it-all (and will probably get the usual stock answer): why would the manufacturers of ultra-high-end transistor amps sold for kilo bucks not build the best isolated chassis possible if this is such a concern? Again to get back to the original question, yes there are vibrations, yes they travel through the air and through whatever materials are in and around the room. No, I don't think we should worry ourselves sick over it. Like all issues concerning audio blowing things out of all proportion gives one a feeling of importance, of being in- the-know. There is no percentage in doing otherwise. The "if a little is good then a lot has to be better" attitude (read disproportioned power supplies, power cables, high current power amps etc.) has taken over some time ago and is seen as being the future of audio by high-enders. I just think that this escalation is making audio what it is now: a very marginal proposition at best, with very few new devotees. A sense of proportion is sorely lacking. When does attention to detail, to minutiae becomes more of a hindrance than a source of advancement? I truly wonder.

While your post is not aimed at me specifically, I am going to take it on. Your comments are copied and pasted below.

"I will trot out the usual question-to-end-it-all (and will probably get the usual stock answer): why would the manufacturers of ultra-high-end transistor amps sold for kilo bucks not build the best isolated chassis possible if this is such a concern?

My response:

First, your question begs the same answer as the previous posts that question why high end manufacturers do not include audiophile power cords with their products. I will answer BOTH of these issues, because they can both be answered by the same response.

First, there ARE manufacturers that in order to keep the performance to price ratio in line for their place in the market, choose NOT to include these additional cost items.

However, there ARE manufacturers that charge enough for their superior performing products THAT DO include these.

Examples are manufacturers such as Walker Audio, who include two very high end aftermarket power cords with his best turntable. One goes from the wall outlet to the motor controller and one from the motor controller to the turntable motor. This is an example of two power cords improving a rotating motor, turning a belt, driving a 70 pound platter. Not only is it audible, it is necessary to the performance of the product.

Second, there are manufacturers that DO use special damping, copper cladding and / or high grade machined chassis's to improve isolation.

A quick look on the internet will allow you to view examples from Pioneer who use honeycomb embossed low resonance chassis for their high end products, many of which are clad in copper.

Machined aluminum billet construction is employed by Rowland for their transistor amps. By CTC in their Blow Torch transistor preamp, and Rockport in their isolated transistor motor drive for their turntable. These are a fraction of the companies that believe in this technology and use it in their production.

Third, there ARE companies that manufacture their products with SPECIAL ISOLATION FEET as part of normal product production. Prime examples are the Number Cruncher D to A manufactured by Entec which is equipped with the Vibrapod aftermarket isolation foot as standard issue.

McCormack Audio supplied Soft Shoes (Trade Mark) as an OEM part. They were sold by the thousands and installed as the standard issue isolation foot on many audio products.

This is not alchemy or fiction, many of these product's were inspired from Military and or NASA space research programs.

Audio products benefit from trickle down technology from better funded sources that are working to solve isolation and vibration problems. These are real problems and the solutions wind up helping those of us that care about making things the best they can be.

Audiogon is a site that is frequented by audiophiles who concern themselves with the passion for music and the tools necessary to make it the best it can possibly be.

There are visitors who are content with bedside radio, and those who will pay any amount to retrieve the last bit of realism from their music systems.

No crazier than musicians who seek vintage Genelex KT88 tubes in order to achieve vintage sound from their electric guitars.

The passion for "getting it right" is not new, even if in conflict with your idea as to what constitutes good value.

You may dismiss these advancements, call them frivolous and doubt those who seek to make the experience better, but until you become open minded enough to listen to these products work their magic in a direct listening session, you will never understand.

Pbb, strawmen, irony, apples, oranges, and lack of knowledge. Thus is a summary of your response, and that of your comments in general. Let me explain.

STRAWMEN
"The problem is you have nothing quantified."
If we consider the spectrum of [ Possible > Probable > Audible ], the thought experiment defines a nice sharp position, somewhere around the right side of the second >. We arrived at that point with incontrovertible logic, whereas your statement of the type ".. for no logical reason" places us somewhere left of the entire spectrum above, and worse yet, does not even define a spectrum.

IRONY
".. for no logical reason" is a statement made for no logical reason, or at least with no logical reasoning put forth. Nor is there any logical reasoning put forth to move the pointer back towards the left even a bit, even though your desired position requires considerable movement all the way to the left.

If by "quantified" you mean "assigned numbers", my thought experiment can be easily turned into a physical experiment. Here's one that requires no lab equipment: Fire up some music with a beat to it. Turn up the volume until you can just begin to feel the bass a little, in your chest (80-100hz does that well). Now, place your finger tips, very lightly, on the top metal plate of your CD player. Do we need to assign a number to that vibration which you will surely feel? If so, buy an accelerometer and a scope, and measure it yourself. Then you could tell us how small those numbers are, and how in-audible that should be. At least then, you could comment with SOMETHING. Something more than the strawmen that you stand up and kick down in such a definitive manner.

APPLES & ORANGES
"As an analogy (for what it's worth) the world is chockfull of bacteria and viruses. Their mere presence does not signify that the carrier is diseased."

Your analogy, upon any inspection, is not worth much at all. It completely fails to anologize the situation at hand. A more accurate analogy would be "someone who voluntarily exposes themselves to high concentrations of very particular bacteria and viruses on a daily basis, may or may not be able to tell the difference between two slightly different diseases."

With that more accurate analogy, you could at least argue numbers. I can imagine something like "if your intra-oral body temperature is exactly 102.6 F, when infected with the nemulo coccus as well as when infected with the nebulo coccus, then your headache could not possibly be different".

Now, the names of bacteria I did indeed make up as I went, whereas the rest is from experience. I find it much more usefull for a discussion to progress along some path, rather than be stifled by the same three mantras repeatedly repeatedly.

LACK OF KNOWLEDGE
"I will trot out the usual question-to-end-it-all (and will probably get the usual stock answer): why would the manufacturers of ultra-high-end transistor amps sold for kilo bucks not build the best isolated chassis possible if this is such a concern? "

That question "ends" only one thing: any shred of credibility of the argument that uses such a statement, simply because it shows the lack of knowledge of the very industry one is discussing. It shows that you have never looked inside a Rowland amplifier, nor a Conrad Johnson tube preamplifier. Nor have you placed the 1 lb mass on the CD in a CEC transport. Apparently, you have not even gone so far as to visit Aria Audio's website (Michael Elliot's new company), to have noticed the images of his circuits with bracing and dampening of the capacitors. Not having done ANY of the above (examples from my very limited knowledge), we can only assume that you have never actually put bubble wrap under your preamplifier, just to prove to yourself that it will not make a difference.

But I guess that would necessitate the owning of a preamplifier, or doing some research, or actually partaking in the hobby that you are so keen to debunk.

It seems you almost had a point with "I don't think we should worry ourselves sick over it...[cut].. When does attention to detail, to minutiae becomes more of a hindrance than a source of advancement? I truly wonder."

But the point is pointless, because "attention to detail, to minutiae" is the VERY definition of ANY hobby or enthusiasm, is it not? Car fanatics discuss the type of alloy used for the screws affixing their front brake pads. Fishing enthusiasts discuss the balance of their fly rod when casting with 10 lb line, especially on humid days. Shutterbugs discuss the dynamics of the sparkle from a car window, given a particular polarization of the filter, color temperature, and film speed. That is what hobbyists do, they pay attention to the details and discuss the minutiae.

What is rather UNUSUAL about the audio hobby is that it seems to attract so many NON-hobbyists, who receive so much satisfaction from constantly telling hobbyists they are barking up the wrong tree.

Audiofile9, it appears you and I posted answers to the Pbb posting at the same time.

Our responses from similar positions, hoping to explain what should be obvious.

Albert, indeed we must have been posting simultaneously. Interestingly, our thoughts were as harmonious as our timing :)