Stillpoints or Audio Points, has anyone compared


It there a difference in sound, when using Stillpoints and if so, what to expect.

Are Stillpoints better than Audio Points.
Trying to figure out how do they differ in sound.

Also are all brass cones, even thought from different companies , do they all do the same thing or are there that are superior.
macallan25
The lightning rod analogy is very inappropriate. The whole assertion, implied here so often, that the earth beneath our feet serves as a universal "ground" for all mechanical vibration the way it serves as a ground for electrical charge, is seductive but without basis. Common experience tells us it's not so. We've all felt the ground acting as a source of vibration.

A related but separate idea that is very suspect is that we know how to design mechanical systems that transfer vibrational energy in one direction but not the other. Again, analogizing electrical systems with mechanical systems would suggest that this should be true, but the analogies themselves are fallacious.

Another thing: Thinking of isolation (or absorption) and coupling as opposites that can be achieved in any practical application is appealing and makes for great audiophile arguments, but it's really of little use in seeking the right kind of vibration control in your system. I'd suggest that every effective vibration control approach relies on both coupling and isolation/absorption.

The basic idea is to use coupling to make your audio component just a piece of a larger mechanical system that can deal with the vibrations to which your component is subjected. The larger system should have the characteristic of absorbing vibrations that are harmful to the propagation of the audio signal and releasing that energy (it has to go somewhere) in a way that is not harmful to the audio signal. Thus, the system has to have a sink for harmful vibrations, and the parts of the system have to be coupled together in order for that sink to be of any benefit against vibrations generated by or reaching the component.

We might place magazines or a specially designed, heavy block on top of a component, using gravity to do the coupling that effectively changes the component's cabinet so as not to resonate at harmful frequencies. We might put the component on gel footers. Gravity couples the component to the compliant footers, which absorb detrimental vibrations and dissipate the absorbed energy as heat. We might put the component on a Neuance, BDR or some other shelf with appropriate energy dissipation properties. Again, gravity acting on the mass of the component does the coupling. We may seek to use cones or weights to increase the coupling of the component to the shelf, but then we have to be careful about the vibrational qualities of those items that we've introduced into the system. We might couple our components to a heavy, sand-filled rack or rack with suspension system, depending on the rack itself to serve the absorption and isolation functions.

As an extreme, we could mass load and clamp our component to a rack whose legs are sunk into a concrete piling buried deep into the ground, in an attempt to make our vibration control system really huge and use the earth itself as the sink. If we chose our materials right, this should have benefits -- certainly floor-borne vibrations would be eliminated -- but I don't know how much of a problem ground-borne vibrations would be. I would bet that you would experience a net gain, but anyway, that is getting a little impractical.

I really am unconvinced that any commercial equipment rack relies on the principal of coupling the component to the ground for its success. Such a rack would be way too specialized. It might work on a concrete pad, for example, but, as Fiddler has said, how could this rack be effective for audiophiles that had their systems on any floor but the ground floor or basement?

In Audiogon discussions, we've come to associate Sistrum equipment with the claim of "draining vibrations to the ground". But Robert of Starsound has posted that, by design, Sistrum racks vibrate like crazy, and he described the shelves of the racks as "rattle traps". To me, this sounds like a rack that derives it's effectiveness from materials and design that allow the rack to dissipate absorbed energy at frequencies too high to significantly affect the propagation of the audio signal. This is a strategy that is used by makers of rigid, lightweight equipment.

I'm not a person with any special technical expertise, but I do try to understand things in a practical, hype-free way. Please feel free to comment on my analysis.

My real point is that enjoying high fidelity sound really is a more complicated task than can be accomplished by following dogmas like "only use coupling" and "only use isolation". Coupling vs. isolation is a false dichotomy. I've done some but not a huge amount of experimentation with vibration control. I know it makes a significant difference, but I hope anyone just starting out will not be intimidated from experimenting with different approaches, including -- horrors! -- mixing so-called coupling devices with so-called absorption devices. As is the case with many other aspects of hifi discussed on this site, simple, universal formulas about hifi make for good debates and marketing pitches, but relying on them to build your system is a fool's errand.
Tom, thanks for your info.

I do believe the Audiopoints were ineffective in my system simply because of the particular application. I do fully intend to try the Sistrum products again when my situation changes because so many people swear by them. As I said, based on anecdotal information, I believe Audiopoints work. I believe a lot of isolation products work. Some better than others I am sure. But at the moment I have found a dramatically effective solution for my given situation and I am very happy that I have finally rid my room of any floor boom.

And Stehno, thanks for your reply. I believe we are actually on the same page, but given the particulars of my room, the Audiopoints simply didn't work. (BTW, I forgot to mention; in our previous home before our new house, I had the exact same speakers and virtually the same equipment/setup, all sitting on a concrete pad and I never had the slightest problem with floor boom.)

I'll tell you what I have thought about since the day I received the Audiopoints.

The reason the points never coupled is that they never got through to the floor. The points were plenty sharp, but the bevel on the point prevented the point from getting through my carpet and pad. If the bevel was steeper, I have no doubt that my speakers would have pushed the Audiopoints through my carpet and pad.

A needle with the same degree of bevel would get through to the floor, whereas the same bevel on a one inch rod wouldn't have a chance.

I am disappointed that the spikes were never allowed to work because I truly did want to see what would happen, good or bad, with the "famed" Audiopoints in place and coupled to my suspended floor.

The bad news is that I didn't get results with the Audiopoints. The good news is that I found a solution for my speakers and components in my current situation that has given me clarity, detail, imaging, etc. that I never thought possible with my modest system.

Once again, thanks for the efforts to help. I never object to spirited debate as long as the motive is right.
Tvad, not sure what speakers you have and how much they weigh.

My speakers weigh 110 lbs. apiece with most of the weight concentrated on the front. The drivers and especially the 50 lb. ribbon right on the front make them extremely front loaded. I simply placed the Vibrapods accordingly based on the proportional weight of my speakers.

The grout line in the middle is not a concern of mine since 3/4 of the weight is centered right in the front of my speakers and consequently away from the center of the tiles.

I think you would be in great shape to simply distribute the appropriate rated Vibrapods according to the weight distribution of your speakers. I doubt your speakers will be as heavily weighted toward the front as mine so placing a couple of Vibrapods under the seam would probably work beautifully.

One suggestion. For stability purposes, I would use more Vibrapods than less. For instance: on a one hundred pound speaker you could use four #5 pods distributed accordingly or ten #3 pods. The ten pods would support the equivalent weight of the four pods, but the weight would be distributed more evenly.

BTW, the floor sliders are 3/16 of an inch, the pods are 9/16 of an inch and the Travertine is 1/2 thick. Total for the sandwich, 1 3/4 inches. Not really that much.

Aloha,

Warren
Fiddler thanks for the nice try the open mind! There may be again, a second round. In the mean time listen and enjoy..Tom
Jayboard the whole approach is to not impede the flow but to allow the flow to happen more easily. If you add a point or mass to the top of a component you will disrupt the speed and have multiple points of exit..none being more coherent or efficient than the ones down below as when coupling with Audiopoints or Sistrum ..Tom