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Attention Scientists, Engineers and Na-s

Isn't it funny how timing works. With all the different discussions on proving this, show me fact on that and the psycho acoustical potential of the other thing an article comes along with the same topics and some REAL potential answers. I received my newest copy of "The Audiophile Voice" Vol.7, Issue1 today and on page 16 is an article written by David Blair and Bill Eisen titled "In The Matter Of Noise". The article focuses on disturbance noise but has some reference to thermal noise, low frequency noise and shot noise, and our ability to measure these noises with the equipment of today. We have measured noise as low as 6x10 to the power of -5, or approximately a few cycles per day. We have also found through laboratory testing that the human brain is stimulated with frequencies from just above 0Hz to just below 50kHz. U.S. Department of Defense documents also show studies of low frequency activity below measurable levels and there various affects.
The article then begins to talk about out of band (hearing) noise and in band noise produced by our electronic equipment and the potential of these noises effecting our sound system. The assumptions are that "disturbance noises rob our systems of dynamics, low-level information, tonal purity and stage depth". These effects are for the most part overlooked and misunderstood by the scientific communities. They say they think that our speakers being hit with "massive quantities of R.F.I. are affected" A very good quote referring to power filters was "Effective noise control imposes no sonic tradeoffs or downside." How often have the discussions here on Audiogon focused on what they are doing? A very interesting comment was that Teflon is capable of carrying 40-Kilovolts static charge, and the industry is touting this as a great insulator for audio signals, that's scarey!
Now I bring this to light because I believe the view of the "Scientists and Engineers" here on Audiogon is so narrow that they are failing to see the exciting challenges in front of them. If all these noises do exist, which they do, and they can be transmitted and received through our systems, isn't possible, just maybe feasible that the insulation of our wires, the casing of our dedicated lines the size and shape of the conductor could, just maybe effect the sound? Isn't it even possible that forces set off by electrical components could be interfering in some so far unmeasured and inaudible way affecting the sound. Do you all test within the full spectrum of 0Hz to 50Khz for every possible situation? Or is it possible, just ever so small of a chance that you are overlooking a whole new science yet unexplored. Doesn't that, even slightly excite your little scientific fossils?
Man if I was younger, healthier and wanted a challenge. This is a career if you'd just climb out from behind you oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzer and see the world is indeed still spinning, and yes, it is 2001. Remember how 30 years ago 2001 was going to be so exciting. What the hell have the Scientist, Engineers and Na-sayers who tote there stuff here on Audiogon done for the advancement of science. Anyone, have any of you really broken through! J.D.
128x128jadem6
detlof
1,899 posts
 
Hello 702, there is one basic mistake in your assumption:
"We" are not trying to offer scientific proof for what we maintain we hear. All what we are saying is that " there is something. " It is not necessarily our concern, if science agrees with us or not. Even if we were of scientific bend or training, here we are hobbyists out to enjoy ourselves, not scientists. However we are tired of being ridiculed or being taught boring lessons in schoolboy physics or elementary psychological testing routines by people who have no clue about the history of science or, worse, of epistemology and theory of knowledge. If they had, they would get off their occasionally asinine high horses, because they would know that for the last 350 years there have been discussions like ours going on ad nauseam, about people who have maintained that they were on to something, being ridiculed and persecuted by the mainstream . Of course there was snake oil and charlatans, but more often than not,science had to acknowlege that assumptions previoulsy being persecuted as false, did have their objective foundations in science after all. Messmer comes to mind here, as just one example. So I am afraid that I have to answer, permission granted Redkiwi I hope, also to your sermon with a hearty RHUBARB!
philiphansg0cc4
6 posts
 
Hi 70242, exotic cable designers do have some thingies which they cannot publish for science sake. They have to survive to fight another cord/conditioner battle in the commercial reality.
i'm technically trained for my profession in electronics & electrics and an AES member. For the love of reproduced music i'm also a severe case of "audiophilisis", a Believer. My tech knowledge is sufficient for my day job, but i'm not always able to understand completely why there are sonic differences i could hear between designer & stock cords. I choose to pursue my hobby to the fullest, enjoying the music with just that little bit more clarity and realism which i could achieve with good designer interconnects, conditioners and powercords. I'll try to figure out why or read up maybe some day, but waste no time now, enjoy the music!
They are expensive because most of them are handmade & are of very good materials. I bought them used, so could change them about without losing too much money. But beware, not all "designer" gear are crap-free. Having a group of audiophile friends helps, some even allow me hometrial. I think all true audiophiles would agree with me, that we need not understand the technicalities to enjoy our hobby, and this is what Audiogon is all about isn't it. There is nothing wrong with stock cords; they are good value for the average hifi enthusiast i must insist.
Here is something more technical. A well known audiocable maker uses "lossy" PVC, average loss PE & low loss teflon materials for their cable insulation to make products, some of them even have all three types in combinations and geometries. What is significant is that this maker is able to match each buyer's budget from good to excellent sonics consistently. It also said that PVC is underated becuse of its "lossiness" but good sonically. And that teflon is overated because it "glares" sonically and need to counteract with some other foamed materials and "airspaces" geometry. Then there is this secret wire-drawing method which imparts a special surface finish for good tranfer high audio frequencies; which also made all its earlier cables obsolete! There isn't any new technology here. You see cable makers like this one do have a good grasp of the sonic capability of their different cable models in order to assign the "correct" price. I actually bought and still using their interconnect and speaker cables. I did not wait for them to publish any white paper on this technology. They are probably just clever innovations which make the sonic difference.
I have a G-clef Gutwire pc on my cdp, AudioPower Industries PL313's for 845 tube monoblocs all fed through a Chang lightspeed 6400. They are not top notch pricewise, but for for my low power demand they are far better sounding than stock cords. Bought used, they are excellent value.
costrosk
101 posts
 
Superb post, Philphans!!

I don't pretend to get the science behind it, but I do know from experience IC's do make a difference. I don't know that I'd notice the change if someone snuck the original ICs back on my gear, but I know for a fact that I hear a difference between them and the ones I use and the other sets I bought and don't use. The differences are small, subtle, but decidedly audible. I tend to discount the hyperbolic claims that an IC suddenly brought out a gigantic soundstage or made the system mesmerisingly involving or any of that, but if someone tells me that there is less grain in the treble, or better definition in the bass, or some similarly reasonable change in their swap, I can believe it. For the more grandiose claims, I mostly figure it was probably time to clean and tighten the contacts (it can be quite astounding the difference that can make!) and a new set of IC's were just part of the deal.

As to power, well, I haven't gotten to that point in the progression of my audiophilia yet, but I don't preclude the possibility. Electricity is a wacky thing, capable of popping up in the most amusing and haphazard places and ways. The best I can manage right now is a dedicated circuit and a Monster strip (only my oldest amp has non-stock PC, and that actually looks more like somebody built it on the weekend using spare parts from a job site than a proper PC). As to what the heck is going on when that public utility power slams its way into my transformers, I suspect I'd actually rather not know, but since I want my tranformers to do the best they can, it makes sense to me to make it as easy as possible for them by providing plenty o clean juice. My opinion is that this is one area where you get what you pay for - good gear has better transformers, etc. Could be completely wrong, but then, I have an amp that makes much better music with its upgrades than it did stock. Wonder why?

The only objection I have is in pricing this stuff; I just don't believe it's based on sonics at all. Obviously, it can't be in R & D; that would mean a science based reason would exist for whatever properties manufacturers claim for their cables, and few if any of them try suggesting that seriously. So it must be in materials and processes - except that pure gold cables wouldn't cost what some of these outfits are charging for copper/silver/alloy wire. So I'm guessing that marketing probably accounts for quite a chunk - and that's something I do my damndest to avoid paying for.

In any event, if it sounds good to you, buy it and use it. If it doesn't, please don't sell it to me!

chas
bowhunter
6 posts
 
Help me understand why HighEnd Amp companies do not include a super duper power cord specifically designed for their amp and that adds just $500 to the overall cost. Seems to me that Amp and Speaker makers would get in on this high profit opportunity if it had any value to the customer at all.... and maybe even if it didn't. If I made a $100k pair of speakers, I would also make sure I sold or included the best cables possible to make sure my customers could hear the way they should sound (or at least the way I thought they should sound).

jerie's avatar
jerie
54 posts
 
Bowhunter: Some High End amp manufacturers do! My Classe CA 300 came with a high-end "super-duper" power cord and I understand that NAD recommends the use of their power cord. Some "High End Amp" manufacturers such as Krell have even produced, marketed and sold speaker cable. Apogee also recommended cables for their speakers. However, I think speaker cables, like interconnects tend to be system dependant. People tend to purchase cables to fine tune their audio rig. People are looking for synergy in their audio system. They should choose the cable and get the kind of sound that makes them happy. Moreover, the competition is tough in the consumer electronics business. It's very difficult to make a killing. Adjusting your pricing to add an expensive power cord could cost you some business . I think most manufacturers play things pretty close to the vest to maximize profits while remaining competitive. Regards; -Jerie
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