Tubegroover - I'm quite certain that many people have experienced making "copies" that were so different that the differences could be heard by anyone - it's easy to do even with very recent software and hardware. Just configure your "ripping" software to operate in analog mode and the path will be from CD through a D/A conversion, followed by an A/D conversion to be written to the CDR. There is nobody on this thread, I'd be willing to bet, who wouldn't be able to hear the differences imparted by such a low-quality set of conversions. Couple this with the widespread reports of earlier software / hardware producing degraded "copies" and I think there are a LOT of CDR "copies" in the world that sound between worse and unlistenable compared to the original. If we could eliminate these variables / experiences, I think the division would narrow considerably and, assuming differences were still being heard, we could figure out how to narrow the reasons down further so as to understand the phenomena. -Kirk