HELP Electrocompaniet stole Christmas

Sos, thanks for taking the time to respond so eloquently. I can only speak for myself (but believe others would agree) that a company can make whatever policies they deem fit for their products. The issue is not the policy per se. Rather, the issue is the application of the policy without prior communication. Had Ernie been asked to relay the serial number over the phone and then been told the policy, this whole thread would have been very short indeed and Ernie would not have risked life and limb for 8 hours (two round trips) in a snowstorm. Alan should acknowledge some culpability and remedy the situation by doing the mod in this instance.

As a matter of policy, it is important to protect those who paid full price. Hence, my earlier suggestion to offer mods at a premium for those who got the original unit so cheaply because of the gray market. The particular premium stated seems a bit steep, but that's a different issue altogether. The crux is upfront communication, which did not adequately occur here. You can't expect the customer to know the rules. You need to inform the customer of the rules up front.

Also, might I suggest that a different policy be enacted for those who can show an original receipt and documentation of residency overseas at the time of purchase? Why penalize people who have simply moved?

Sheesh...What a mess! :-(

Ok...I am going to try and make this quick and to the point...

First...I have the UTMOST respect for Alan and consider him a friend. His intentions and practices have ALWAYS been ethical and to the highest standards that any dealer or customer could ever ask for. I will NOT be dropping the Electrocompaniet line any time soon. As long as Alan is the distributor, I will continue to carry Electrocompaniet. Electrocompaniet couldn't ask for a better person to represent their line. Finally, Alan is a human being just like everyone else and I believe that we all make bad decisions at times (not saying he did or didn't in this case by the way). So, those who have never made a bad decision or made a mistake, feel free to start chucking stones :-(

Trelja...HOW DARE YOU COME ON A PUBLIC FORUM LIKE THIS AND STATE SUCH TERRIBLE THINGS ABOUT SOMEONE (Alan)! Whether true or not, this is NOT the place for such things. I am SHOCKED that someone would do such a thing. You should be ashamed of yourself! I am curious, would you say such things to Alan's face?

Ernie...Sorry I have not contacted you yet, been trying to figure out what the heck would be the best solution for everyone. Just be patient and we will get this figured out. I will give you a call later today.

Finally...Either myself or Ernie will post a message in this forum with the details of the solution myself, Alan, and Ernie decides upon. Until then, please try and be civil with one another ;-) At that time, I (or Alan) will also post a concrete and definitive policy that will deal with "grey" market units (I will post it on my website also).

Finally...Because of the nature of the internet, it is easy to feel safe in front of your computer while spewing venom. PLEASE remember, there are actual human beings on the other end that are just like you. There is nothing wrong with stating your opinion, but do it in a manor as if the person or group you are speaking to is standing in fron of you, in the flesh.

Best Regards...Mike - Father & Son Audio

Sos: First of all, the "grey market" products are a point for EC and their distributors to handle. Obviously, the "bad" distributors / dealers that are undermining the other distributors / dealers within the EC ( or any other company's ) network need to be rooted out and disposed of. The fact that customers that own EC products are feeling the brunt of EC's poor management / marketing is evidence that SOMETHING is very wrong. This should not become the customers problem, as they have already placed their confidence in EC by purchasing one of their products. As such, EC's lack of business skill ends up holding what should be happy customers / owners of their products as hostages. A person in Ernie's situation is now a VICTIM of EC's own unscrupulous dealers / distributors !!! The right way to do things would be to satisfy the customer AND correct / remove the source of the problem ( bad dealers / distributors ).

Judging by the fact that Alan handles business the way that he does tells me that EC is either unaware of his actions as one of their company representatives or that they condone such treatment of their customers / owners of their products. Neither looks good on their part. As such, i once again stress that Ernie REALLY needs to contact EC and present his situation to them. As they have the final say in how their products are supported, how their customers are treated and who deals with them, Alan's perspective may mean very little in the grander scheme of things.

The bottom line is that an individual that is happy with an EC unit needs customer service, is willing to pay full retail for it, has gone out of his way to do so and the company / distributor are telling him to take a hike. That is the whole situation cut and dried. If EC / Alan were "good people" and proud of the product, regardless of who sold it and profited from such sale, they would stand behind it and take care of a "cash in hand" customer.

Ernie has been a vocal proponent of the EC player and i imagine that he would continue to do so after the upgrades were performed. Rather than be able to do so, Alan has spit in his face and then told him that he will "help him out" for twice the price after highly inconveniencing the man. As i mentioned, this is not a matter of a warranty claim or a reduced profit transaction. It is simply a matter of customer / product support for what was previously thought to be an "upgright" brand of products.

As a side note, i find it interesting that you chastised Joe aka Trelja for offering his perspective on Alan, how he is as a person and what to expect out of business dealings with him. Given the fact that Alan's attitude and business mannerisms are what brought this whole thread about, i find Joe's comments to be very applicable to the situation. The fact that you called Joe to task and asked if he would repeat such comments to Alan's face while i have stated much worse makes me laugh. Using the "shame on you" routine to try and embarrass / silence someone only works when the person stating their point of view lacks conviction / has no balls. Judging from Joe's prior posts, i would venture to say that he wouldn't have stepped up to the plate without a bat in hand and an eye towards the fence. I don't think razzing from the bleachers is going to distract him one bit or change his point of view. Especially when he's already been up to bat against the pitcher and knows EXACTLY what to expect from them.

Ernie: You have to decide if you like the player / desire the upgrade enough to want to continue further with this. If you do, you need to bypass those that you've been dealing with and talk to the head of the company / front of the horse. Once you've heard things straight from the horse's mouth, you'll know just how influential the other end of the horse really is and if they were following the lead given to them by the head. For your sake, I'm hoping that the scent coming out of one end is a lot more pleasant to deal with than the other. Otherwise, EC will have generated twice as much "product" for potential customers to step into. Sean
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There are two separate issues here, as I see it. One is EC's policy on so-called "grey market" units, and how to deal with owners who may have purchased them "innocently." While it is ideal to buy from a dealer, many people here, myself included, buy used gear because it is the best way to get the most bang for your buck. You can be as careful as possible in buying from the classifieds and still be snookered. Due to the general trustworthiness of audiophiles, most elect to take that risk. Too, it is the ONLY way to audition gear in your system without taking a major loss in resell. Almost all of us do it, so let's put aside after-the-fact moralizing and deal with the issue, which is how a company treats owners of its products and deals, at the same time, with the grey market. There are valid points on both sides, but refusing to work on these units as a matter of policy is probably short-sighted and bad for business, as many posters have already noted.

But this is a separate issue that EC needs to resolve apart from Ernie's situation.

In this situation, Alan appears to have made a mistake in agreeing to do the upgrade, then reneging once he discovered the unit was grey market. I would have assumed, as Ernie did, that once he was asked about the serial number on the phone and gave an answer, the matter was settled. It is unconscionable to question an owner, agree to perform a service, then back out later because YOU overlooked a central question.

EC should decide what it will charge to do the upgrade for grey market owners and in the process let any other EMC owners who may unwittingly have grey market units know how to make them "legit," then credit Ernie for his time and trouble, deducting that from the cost of the upgrade. In other words, Alan should take responsibility for his mistake and make this right with Ernie.

EC and any other company and/or dealer has a right to protect its market, and it is clearly reasonable to expect those who do benefit from buying used to pay more for service and/or upgrades. But is it really wise to PUNISH people who own your products in order to make a point? Isn't there some acceptable middle ground?

If so, EC had better find it, and fast. Hats off to F&S Audio for trying to find a solution. Nothing worse than being stuck in the middle.

Mike @ FS, despite your emotional response, you seem to be an upstanding dealer. One that I would recommend people patronize. I wish your business prosperity in the new year. Our hobby needs more dealers like you.

My relationship with Alan WAS in the face to face. My opinion of Alan Warshaw is what it is. Like it or not.

Opinions of people developed IN THE REAL WORLD as opposed to how we interact over the internet hold a lot more water to me. Things don't get more real. As a person providing him service, I felt he treated me as if I was beneath him. I do not forget that.

Perhaps all of this is not important, but I view ALL people as being worthy of a high level of respect and dignity. When I interact with a person helping me, I treat them the way I would appreciate being treated if the roles were reversed. Everyone is entitled to conduct themselves as they see fit.

No, in speaking with him, I did not tell him that I found his demeanor not to be to my liking. As someone providing him service, my goal was to help him and do my best to make him a satisfied customer, not antogonize. If I behaved otherwise, my boss would have had good reason to hold my behavior offensive. I would be in the wrong.

Now, that I am no longer someone waiting on him, I would have no qualms letting him know my feelings if he came off in the same manner.

Your relationship with him is that you are his customer. Maybe he will interact with you differently than someone where the relationship is reversed. Do you find him to be a down to earth, likable person? I truly hope you feel that way. Far be it for me to complain over how you view him, you have as much right to your opinion as I do mine. As I stated, I hold out hope he is a good person and that my impression of him is a minority viewpoint.

I admire him for taking on Hales in their most desperate moments, in fact I laud him for it. I admire and laud him for representing a brand such as Electrocompaniet. I told him so. In this situation, it appears as if he is not supporting a customer who purchased a product through an authorized dealer. Is he worthy of my praise now?

My hope is that this story has a happy ending.