ebay vs audiogon

ok fellas dig this,i just had a amp on auction last night on ebay & the high bidder had a recent negative feedback in his profile stating that he had used the paypal charge back to scam the seller.

of coures this sent me into outer space as soon as i saw it so i wrote the seller & asked for a explaination of what happened,below is a copy of his entire email he sent me last night,word for word.

keep in mind that this buyer has great feedback other than the negative stating the charge back,the seller also has a huge feedback rating & its all perfect too.

START.

mike,he purchased a mcintosh mc2300 amp from me for $900,he picked the amp up in person & put it unprotected in the trunk of his car & went home.

he wrote me the next day saying the amp was not working correctly & demanded a partial refund,he filed a complaint with ebay & lost,then he filed a complaint with paypal & lost,then he did a charge back thru his credit card company NOW HE HAS MY AMP & HIS MONEY!

paypal is filing a complaint in my behalf with his credit card company but it takes up to 75 days to process & ive yet to hear a word from them.

this amp was in good working order when it left my house & i believe it still is,he just wanted a partial refund,not a total refund where he would have to return the amp,he wanted a partial refund of $500 in his complaints to ebay & paypal,he was denied on both complaints but due to the credit card company charge back now he has all his cash & my amp!

good luck with him & let me know how it turns out.

END.

the whole deal of being verified works great for buyers & it takes care of a lotta issues for them like buyers remorse or to flat out rip a seller off ,when you supply the credit card info in order to be verified there isnt a thing in the world you can do to stop a charge back.

this isnt a issue of ebay vs audiogon & since were trading here & not ebay were safe its an issue about a dangerous loophole that leaves a honest seller totally at the mercy of idiots & thieves who on a whim can have the gear & the cash & it happens every day.

ive been turned down many times from sellers who refuse to sell gear to a non verified address thinking this in some way protects them,it dont protect anybody but the buyer & will only make it possible for a buyer to legaly rip you off.

mike.

Bigjoe: It's true, paypal ain't perfect. It's risky both ways. Sometimes chargebacks made by malicious buyers go through and screw the seller. Sometimes chargebacks get refused by paypal when the seller really did scam the buyer.

That said, it's a helluva lot safer for a buyer than sending a money order, and I think it would be great if you could acknowledge that as a strength.

I know sellers matter too. The idea here is to come up with a way to make both people relatively safe and happy. I know that you're very anti-paypal because of your own experiences, but it's been really frustrating to read your responses on this issue, in this thread and others, which are many, because I've never seen you actually offer a solution. All I see is complaints, and the insistance that money orders are the way to go because they're 100% safe for you, the seller.

You seem to hate Escrow.com with an equal passion, and you've never explained why, besides the ubiquitous "it's bad for the seller", and that it's slow. Again, the point is to come up with a mutually beneficial solution. Finding such a solution will benefit you as a seller as well, in the long run.

The policy of draining an account after a transaction and waiting to ship is extremely underhanded, deceitful, and disrespectful. If I were involved in a transaction with a seller who did that, I would report them to paypal immediately.

I don't mean to be b*tchy. I've had a lot of fun talkin' to you and many other anti-paypal dudes on the Gon, but I just had to express my frustration. The end.

lousyreeds,im not anti paypal in the slightest in fact i prefer paypal & prefer to use it weather im buying or selling,all im saying is that the confirmed address bit that has taken over is meaningless to a seller & offers no protection to the seller.

what i was lookin for was for somebody to tell me why they insist on a buyer having a verified address before they sell to them,it seems that every body selling gear wants the verification but nobody can explain why & that leaves me a bit confused about the whole thing.

i cant speak for other sellers but i make sure that i tell buyers my methods & most times i ship before the payment is transfered but it all depends on the amount too,if its $5k then it must clear first.

when you stated that i hate escro you were correct,escro is the fastest growing scam out there with copy cat names that decieve buyers into thinking their dealing with escro.com when in reality their getting scammed.

ive also never claimed to be an expert on the best method of payment but having been a victim of scams ranging from money orders to paypal i know the bad points to all the payment methods & it never hurts to pass this info along as most people will never encounter as many con artists as i do,all i have done is try to show buyers how they can be scammed no matter how they pay,im not bitching at all but if somebody had taken the time to point out a few of these things to me & not worry what others think about what they say i may have avoided a few of the scams & saved alot of cash.

im not trying to pin a medal on my chest or anything but im the only member here that admits to selling gear for profit when this place is full of resellers & all i try to do is pass along information that i know to be true in the hopes of saving some other poor guy the grief & loss of cash that i have experienced,its hard to not come off sounding harsh but sugar coated information helps nobody at all.

i also post warnings in every one of my ebay auctions letting buyers know what to look out for & have recieved many emails from audiogon members & ebay buyers alike telling me that the info i gave them helped them avoid a scam.

if i come off as being a know it all its not the case or the intent,just the passing of information from somebody who has been hit with every scam on the planet.

Hey Bigjoe, thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it! Looks like you and I both have been scammed a couple of times, and we're both after the same solution. Here's to the betterment of the online community!

Bigjoe - I am a new Audiogon member in the process of completing my first Audiogon purchase, so you have infinitely more experience in the selling/buying process than I do. However, I question your dismissal of escrow because it is “the fasting growing scam out there with copy cat names.” There is no reason for a savvy seller to end up dealing with a “copy cat” or “fake” escrow company. First, Audiogon has a direct link on its Help page to Escrow.com, one of the largest escrow companies. Second, if a buyer insists on escrow, you, as the seller, should insist on choosing the escrow company or give the buyer a choice of several legitimate escrow companies. If the seller limits the choice of escrow company to legitimate escrow companies, I doubt there is a way the buyer can highjack the transaction and move it to a sham or fake escrow company. Of course, this approach requires you to use Escrow.com or research and select other escrow companies in advance of placing your ad. You may not want to spend that time and effort.

In a related thread, “What is it with Scams,” a post on 03/01/05 by Ga5556 suggests a scam that might be worked into the fabric of a legitimate escrow: a phony e-mail from
the escrow company. In the case of the seller being scammed, the phony e-mail would confirm that the buyer’s funds were good and instruct the seller to ship the quipment. I don’t know how ingenious scammers are in creating fake e-mails, but it seems to me the seller could sniff out a fake e-mail by comparing its origin with the origin of legitimate e-mails from the escrow company. Also, a separate e-mail (not a response to the suspected e-mail) or a telephone call from the seller to the escrow company asking for confirmation should be enough to uncover a fake e-mail instruction to ship.

There may be other reasons why you do not like to use escrow companies, like slower completion of the deal and the escrow fee, but I think concerns about a fake escrow company or fake e-mails can be eliminated with a small amount of effort.

One problem area I would have about using an escrow as a seller is the acceptance of credit card payment by escrow. Escrow.com accepts credit cards and its FAQ does not
discuss the ability of the buyer’s credit card company to yank back or "freeze" the funds after the equipment has been shipped. If an escrow company told me that it could not stop funds paid by credit card from being pulled out of escrow or being "frozen," I would not use escrow unless the escrow instructions for my sale specified that payment by credit card would not be allowed.

Incidentally, I think escrow avoids a “partial refund” claim of the type described in your 02/26/05 post to this thread. As I understand the escrow process, the buyer has a set period of time after delivery to accept or reject the item. If the buyer does not notify escrow that there is a problem, escrow automatically forwards all the money to the seller. If the buyer rejects the item, the buyer does not get a refund until the seller confirms receipt of the returned equipment. There is no procedure for a “part payment/part refund” - it’s either all or nothing. And at no time is the buyer allowed to have both the item and his money (provided the credit card issue discussed in the prior paragraph is eliminated).

A further thought on the “partial refund” transaction that was described in your post. That transaction was concluded face-to-face, so the seller could have put the amp into
his system and played it for the buyer just to confirm that it was in working order before handing it over. Of course, that wouldn’t have prevented the buyer from later lying
about the condition of the amp when it was handed over, but it would have given the seller some additional ammunition. If the seller really wanted to protect himself, he could have asked the buyer to sign a receipt confirming that: (i) the amp was delivered and (ii) the buyer had listened to the amp and it was in working order. This may sound a little over the top, but if you conclude a deal in person, you might as well get all the advantages it offers over transactions that involve shipping. The ability to confirm the condition of the equipment at the time of delivery to the buyer is one of those advantages (for both sides). Also keep in mind that a seller who ships has the carrier's receipt to prove that he shipped the equipment and maybe a tracking report or carrier’s record to prove it was delivered. As a seller in a face-to-face deal, you have neither, so you should create a receipt to at least verify delivery.

I don’t claim to be an expert, so any additional comments you can provide would be welcome.