Percentage to spend on Amp and Speakers

Hi Joe, I agree, as I said previously, that speakers, certainly by the standards of electronics, are not neutral. Speakers are the most crude of all audio equipment. Yet, there are speakers, even expensive ones, which can leave your ears bleeding following an audition while others can sound COMPARITIVELY smoother, more neutral, cleaner sounding, while produce better soundstage etc. I think you might have even mentioned one which I might stay away from, if I can use my audition of the Avalon Opus as any guide to how the Avalon Eidolons might sound. (I know that the Eidolons have a big reputation and a big price tag to match, but I would rely on my own ears exclusively.) I cannot say anything about the Eidolon's but the ~$14,000 Opus was NOT impressive, in my opinion. My point was that speakers which are bright, harsh, boomy or have any easily discernable character are those which I want to avoid, even if my system is in need of a little more life, detail, immediacy etc before considering the speakers. I'll make any adjustments with the cables. Hopefully the adjustments will be small, because I have chosen neutral, clean-sounding products. I think my strategy can be followed at any reasonable price point, from budget into the tens of thousands of dollars. I think that it will lead to a higher quality system than if you just split up the money allocating it to various components on a formula basis. I believe this because, amplifiers, preamplifiers as well as speakers have quite a deal of variability within and across price ranges. If you want to get the most and best for your money, you have hunt carefully, audition multiple times with different ancillary equipment and even then, you must really make a guess, unless you are lucky to bring the equipment under audition home for a month. I guess that I feel that most of the people who just want to allocate a certain amount of money to amps, speakers, preamps etc., are unlikely to make all the determinations which are necessary to get the most within their budget, since by using those rule-of-thumb allocation formulas, they have already given up a great deal of their discretion in creating a truly excellent system. I feel that those putting a large amount of money to speakers while simply buying generic budget amplifiers/preamplifiers will almost never achieve a truly distinctive system. That is not to say that there is not some great budget equipment available, but you have to choose charefully. I disagree that speakers are 75% of the sound. The amp and preamp are much, much more important than that. By the way, wasn't crazy about the BAT VK-5I as you don't seem to be so about the VK-3I. Maybe what your intention to get rid of it says is that, despite its reputation, it doesn't live up to your standards. I find that most products that I audition, including those with the big reputations, don't live up to my standards either.

I think your poor impression of the Opus has to do with the more flabby bass control, compared to the super-tight Avalon. The Avalon in my opinion is a speaker to die for. To your other points, I just find it hard to define "neutral" when it comes to speakers since to me all speakers sound very very differently. For instance, I have a strong preference for first order crossovers or single component units, in order to maintain the time and phase coherence which you get with live sound. However, I have heard well reasoned arguments (and some not well reasoned) that time coherence is irrelevant or just not worth its compromises. I have also heard some speakers I liked which were not time coherent (by the way a sloped baffle is not sufficient). I really like the sound of good electrostats, but recognize they have serious drawbacks which can detract from the musical pleasure. The list goes on and on, speakers are very faulty in general ! Particularly when compared to the good solid state amps of nowadays, in the sub $5,000 range, which include such marvels as the Bryston 4BST and 7BST, The Marsh 200 and 400, and the Gamut. Pick any of them and you'll have fine amplification. Pick any of the good CD players from Arcam, Naim, or if you have more dough Muse, Metronome or Levinson, and you'll do great. That is, unless you want to shoot for the stars in which case you'll ned to spend a boatload (i.e. 20-50K) on each component to get them to deliver what you are paying for, not to mention have the perfect listening room. To conclude, there may be some faulty speakers that you would discard right away, but again, I'm focusing on the decisions you make once your listening has narrowed down the choices. At that point I would recommend you pick a pair of speakers and start from there, because they'll determine (together with your room) 75% of how your system will sound. Naturally you will start by trying them with the electronics that made you like them, but from then on you can experiment with different electronics and that is easier than the other way around. Just my 2 cents, anyway !

Miked, you didnt say anything about stuff you already own. Do you have ANY equipment now? The way I did it was totally backwards of how most people do it, but UNLIKE most of the suggestions in this thread, I imagine you're like most people, in that you're not going to jump blindly into this addictive hobby without any prior equipment. Had I bought a whole system when I bought my first "high end" (lol) piece, a Parasound amp to go between my Sony ES receiver and Polk speakers, I would have hated it a year later. I didnt know what I would want, the only thing I knew was that this brand or that brand was well reviewed, etc... I suggest looking at it differently, if you are, in fact, going to plunk down lots of cash up front, and you dont have an existing system to work with. Remember, gentlemen, some of us were fairly happy with the low-fi crap we had before we learned to listen INTO the music, and really hear what the high end has to offer. I would suggest that if possible, you buy some excellent speakers, and integrate them into your existing system. The quality level of your system should go up, and since you havent been "spoiled" by high end preamps and sources, you'll like what you hear. If this aint an option, and you have to get down and dirty all at once, look for a dealer that is friendly, and not pushy, and talk to him. Tell him the story. Chances are that he will have some piece of equipment that, while being switched among and between other components, will light your fire. I agree with most of what Trelja says, but I bet he, too, didnt get it perfect in his first attempt at assembling a great system, probably, you won't either, if you're like any of us. The first "set" of components, the first system that you build, that is, the first piece that you purchase from each category (source, preamp, amp, speakers), will probably not be what you have a couple of years from now. I think it takes about a year of piddling, before you learn what kind of sound you want. For me, the tube preamp is the best thing I discovered. I bought a used Conrad Johnson preamp from a buddy, and it's the best thing I've got, I may never sell it. The Speakers and Amp need to work together well. THat's a place to start. Then, the Preamp needs to be good, which almost NOONE mentioned. I'd spend equal money on preamp and speakers, then maybe at least 60% of that value on an amp, where you can get pretty good (like my old parasound) for not alot of money. Finally, the source is the tough part. I bought a Rega Planet, new, for about $650, IT is by far the least expensive component (based on retail) that I have, and my rig sounds great. TO answer your question, then, keeping in mind the strange state of affairs with the competing (barely breathing is more like it) digital formats, I would spend the money like this. Out of $10k, I'd spend 3000 on speakers, 3000 on a preamp, 2000 on an amp, 2000 on source, and the remaining 1000 on cables. I suggest, however, that you start in the shallow end, and learn where you want to go before going into the deep end without swimmies. good luck. Whaddup Trel'?!?!

Joe-Coherent: I found the Opus to have poor deep bass extension and a closed-in, but bright sound. When it was reviewed by the major mags, it was compared to the Eidolon and while they indicated the Eidolon was better, they did leave the feeling that the Opus delivered the same type of frequency balance and sonic character. I wanted to hear the Eidolon, but the salesman wouldn't even let me in that room since my budget for speakers couldn't even be pretended to stretch to that sum. I would choose many speakers over the Opus, whether they have first-order crossovers or not, at much cheaper prices, like the Vandersteen 3A Signature, Audio Physic Virgo, Vandersteen 5. I would even choose the budget, but, IMO, sonically compromised Hales Revelation 3 over the Opus. The Vandersteen 5 is the best speaker that I have personally heard. I hesitate to place any technology, such as requirement for first order crossovers before listening, as if it is one of the most significant factors in buildiing quality speaker systems, it should be instantly sonically recognizable. If it is not one of the most significant factors and I have prejudiced myself against systems without this technology, it will be very hard for me to accept a system which sounds good without it. As far as amps go, I like the Pass Aleph series and the Plinius SA-100. I haven't listened to the current Bryston's, but I have always found them too bright for my taste, but certainly a good class B amp. I would put the Pass Labs Aleph 4 and Aleph 2 significantly ahead, and the Plinius ahead of any Bryston I have heard. I have an Aleph 4. I am interested to hear the Marsh series of amps since I have heard lots of good things and they are not expensive. Among top preamps, I have heard and liked CAT SL-1 Ultimate, CAT SL-1 Signature, Audible Illusiions Modulus 3A, Ayre K-1 and K-3. I would listen to some of these before giving up on preamps. Also, you might want to check out the Hovland HP-100 and Aesthetix Callisto which supposedly compete in the ultimate preamp category. In the right systems, these can really sing. I have a CAT Ultimate and have compared it vs. going directly from my 12 year old Philips CD-80 into the Aleph 4. I definitely prefer the CAT in the system vs. going direct. Without the CAT, the system is "jumpy" and not refined. With the CAT, it is smooth and musical, dynamic with broad and deep soundstage. I think amps and preamps like these, while expensive, will significantly enhance many sound systems, working well with many speaker systems which can match with solid state electronics. I would feel comfortable mating this system with Vandersteen 5, Vandersteen 3A Signature or Gershman Acoustics RX-20 Avant Garde, for example, as the final piece of this system.

I agree with many of your speaker choices, including the Vandersteens 5 which are wonderful, although somewhat complicated to set-up (too many options). The Eidolon is ina ompletely different league than the Opus, the latter being in my view somewhat overpriced. You could probably argue the same of the Eidolon which is definitily not twice as good as the Vandersteen 5 or better than a SoundLab electrostat ! You pay for the finish and the smart sales tactics. On amps, I agree the Bryston 4B (never the 7B) may sound a little bit bright in some systems, but not so in all, and much less so once it has broken-in. The Plinius are great amps but in my opinion somewhat overhyped, I would still agree to add them to my solid state list. The Marsh is unbelievably good and my personal favorite, although it doesn't look very good. It gets you near enough to heaven. Thanks for your other recommendations.