First Order Crossovers: Pros and Cons

Placing the speakers well out in the room should reduce early reflections. (More distance from a reflective surface equals more delay and more attenuation.) That fits in with the idea of wanting to separate the reflection (echo) from the original event so that your ears/brain will hear them as two separate events and not one muddled-up event.

There are definitely people who don't agree with this approach. Some feel that you're going to have reflections, so you should get your speakers close to the walls so that the direct and reflected events blend together. I think Ted Jordan claims that it's best to have speakers mounted in the wall, and I think this is why he says that.

I'm not positive that phase-coherency leads absolutely to pinpoint imaging. The source to microphone to loudspeaker process has some inherent flaws. Binaural and transaural methods attempt to correct this. (With some success IMO.)

I think it's quite possible that phase distortions could result in the type of soundstage that all the reviewers love to describe. "I could hear that the violinist had a rash on his left elbow. Not the right, but the left..." :-)

I have more to learn about this before trying to come to conclusions.

I do remember hearing a remarkable soundstage from a pair of Acoustats a long time ago. But panel speakers are hardly phase-coherent (nor very linear), so there's something more going on here.

I also once heard a demo of signal processing, played on a boombox, where a helicopter moved toward you from the right front toward your rear left, and seemed to pass overhead as it went! It opens up intriguing possibilities, such as listening to a performance in a "virtual" concert hall and being able to choose where in the hall you "sit."

"I'm not positive that phase-coherency leads absolutely to pinpoint imaging"
I think coherency may be one of the more important of many factors that lead to pinpoint imaging. Inert cabinets, stiff, lightweight drivers, minimal crossovers all help ... in short pinpoint imaging is the result of an excellent transducer.

"I think it's quite possible that phase distortions could result in the type of soundstage that all the reviewers love to describe".

I don't think ANY distortion will improve pinpoint imaging, but I suspect it might help to create an artificially broad soundstage. I remember once demoing a large pair of Martin Logans. The soundstage was huge, and almost sounded like 180 degrees wrapped around in front of you. However within that "wall of sound" the placement of individual performers was very vague ... nothing like the spicas or the europas. It was impressive, and I'm sure some people would love it, but ultimately everything sounded a bit too "huge" to be accurate.

>The lobing is actually due to having 2 spaced sources of the same signal at the same frequency. It isn't really caused by the crossover, but by the drivers. (Just being pedantic here.)

This is news to me, as stated. Of course, any two or more driver units will have interference effects, some configurations less than others. (It's even controversial whether a line array of dynamic drivers is truly a line array, for example.)

But in addition to these driver interference effects, the crossover topology certainly does influence off axis lobing. And you could demonstrate this by using the same pair of drivers and swapping a first order crossover and an "infinite slope" crossover in turn.

Every step up in xover order shifts the phase between tweeter and woofer by an additional 90deg. This means for maximum phase-coherence the obvious choices are second order (180deg shift so you just invert the connections to one driver to get it all back in phase) or fourth order (360deg shift: back in phase but not in time, a simple delay circuit will fix this). The ones to avoid are first and third order as a 90deg (270 for the third order) is very dificult to fix.
One advantage of a first order xover is a small number of parts which results in a very good transient response. The other is their immunity to electrical resonance ("ringing"). The higher the order the xover the easier it is to induce resonance with a high enough power input. When such a filter resonates it actually turns into a sinewave generator and produces an output at the xover frequency! Almost all analog synthsizers use this effect very succesfully but you don't really want that happening in your speakers, to this end most higher order xovers contain a damping circuit to avoid this.

The only truly phase-coherent dynamic multiway speaker in existence (Tannoy DualConcentric) uses a second order xover and inverts the tweeter.
It is phase-coherent to within 18deg. The only way to get better than that is a full-range driver, be it dynamic or planar. The result of this is a stereo image
that is far more precise than any other dynamic speaker I have ever heard.
And, being a true point source, you are always in the sweet spot as long as you are somewhere between the speakers and, where ever you are in the room, the sound never changes! After having spent a fair bit of time in recording studios I can say I have never heard a speaker as close to the real thing as a Tannoy! None, at all. Electrostats have better micro resolution and a Klipshorn better dynamics but, apart from those and overall, theres just nothing that comes even close. I put this down to phase-coherence and the point source characteristic. There is also a marked difference if I invert the connection (on both speakers at the same time): the stereo image pretty much collapses ie it goes flat in depth and height and the bass goes soft.
With other speakers I've never heard a difference.

Dear Golix,

We have exchanged some thoughts on the Time Coherence thread- thank you for sharing those. I greatly respect what Tannoy has done for sound quality, as I can tell you do. Certainly working in a studio qualifies you to know when a speaker's distortions are minimized.

Some corrections, please, to your information above, in the spirit of technical accuracy in our comments:

As I described in the recent Time Coherence thread, the phase shifts by 90 degrees, yes, for each additional order of crossover, as you state above.

But do know that the correct expression to use is that the phase DIFFERENCE is changed by 90 degrees for each additional order- at the CROSSOVER FREQUENCY. Those are important distinctions.

You see, the problem caused by higher-order crossover circuits is that this phase difference is ALWAYS CHANGING as one moves away from the crossover point- a DIFFERENT time delay is being imposed on each and every frequency.

This ever-changing phase difference (ever-changing time delay) CANNOT be corrected with any additional circuit.

The math also shows, without question, that this ever-changing phase difference/time-delay distortion cannot be "fixed" by inverting the tweeter's polarity.

Flipping a tweeter's wires from + to - serves only to flatten the frequency response, when one measures using continuous sine-wave test tones or continuous pink noise.

Those are both unchanging signals, without beginning nor end (and therefore carry no information). These test signals do not indicate anything about WHEN things happen- about the time-delay distortions that are occuring, frequency-by-frequency. When the tweeter's wires are reversed, the resulting transient response has only a "different kind" of inaccuracy, even though one will like "the tone balance better".

Only a first-order crossover has a CONSTANT PHASE DIFFERENCE at every frequency above, at, and below the crossver point. That means there is Zero change in phase between them, so the signals out of the high- and low-pass sections are "in Phase", always, on every frequency.

And all of that means, finally, that first-order circuits are the only ones that pass all their signals through with the SAME time delay, so all of those emerge in the same time-order in which they entered. This is called time-coherent behaviour. So you get the original transient, one not smeared out in time.

A speaker that is designed to deliver a time-coherent output is automatically "phase coherent". The converse is not true, as you may know: A phase-coherent speaker is not necessarily a time-coherent speaker. In fact, if you see the advertisement claim phase coherency, you can bet that the speaker is not time coherent. One has to put something in an ad!

On the Tannoys, their "phase distortions" (time-delay distortions) are rather mild. In my experience, once those varying delays are removed (which cannot be in Tannoys), the difference you'd hear is at least the difference between an average mic and an outstanding one. By the way, neither a phase- or time-coherent behaviour can be directly inferred by looking at the electrical phase of a speaker's impedance curve.

That the Tannoy's phase distortion is tolerable for you, is because it is unconsciously ameliorated in those studios by their mic selection, mic technique, the type and tone of the echo/reverb mixed in, the settings of the tone controls on the mic's channel, and by the EQ applied to the monitor system. And in pop music, the phase shift problems are also "danced around" by the sounds created by compressors, limiters, de-essers, and other tools. I speak from many years of recording experience, and of designing speakers with all these different crossovers (and using many others that had all sorts of their own time-domain distortions).

Thank you for your input. I am glad you get to work in studios so much. There are not enough people with that background contributing to high-end home audio reproduction. I hope my information is of help.

Best regards,
Roy Johnson
Founder and Designer
Green Mountain Audio