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How To Improve B&W N802 Bass Response?

I’m not satisfied with the bass response of my current system in stereo. It seems weak and doesn’t seem to fill the room at low to mid volume. I’m looking for any ideas or suggestions on improving the bass response. My application is mainly 50/50 stereo music / multi-channel HT. Listening room dimension is 24’(W) x 17’(D) x 20’(H) with openings to living room, foyer, kitchen and sun room.

System configuration:
• Digital sources: Sony DVP-NS 755 DVD Player and Scientific Atlanta 8300HD Cable Box
• Digital-Analogue Converter: Apogee Mini DAC (1 week away from being replaced by Apogee Rosetta 200 DAC and Big Ben Clock Regenerator)
• Preamp: McIntosh C200
• Amps: 2 x McIntosh 501 monoblocks
• Speakers: B&W N802
• Cables: Mogami balanced XLR interconnects (soon to be replaced with Apogee Wyde Eye for all interconnects), Cobalt copper speaker cables bi-wired to N802s.
• Receiver: Denon 5803 (for HT only passing thru C200)

I had tried a few configurations along the way, though I’m not satisfied yet, they may be interesting tips for some of you with similar components:
• Canare L-4E6S Star Quad balanced XLR cables tend to “filter” out mid and high frequencies to a point that the sound becomes muddy.
• Belden 1800F XLR balanced cables are better than Canare where they are clearer and seem to give the illusion of sound stage opening.
• Mogami XLR balanced cables better than the above in my system. They are very transparent, clearer and sound stage opens up tremendously.
• Setting the output trim to +12 on C200 makes a lot of difference. It drastically improves details and sound stage even further.
• Connecting N802 low frequency taps to 8ohm and mid/high freq to 4ohm taps of MC502 helps. The bass response seems to be louder and the mid/high seems to be “sweeter” and just right.

I shall soon see what kind of performance improvements from the Apogee XLR cables, Rosetta 200 and Big Ben.

I’m also considering getting a good sub to extend the lower frequency. In my initial research, the SVS PB12 Ultra/2 ($2300) sub seems interesting. It has 1000W BASH digital amp and 2 x 12” TC Sound Ultra drivers. Anybody has any opinion about this sub for music application? I’m wondering how well it blends in with the N802s. I’m not sure how good the 1000W BASH amp is compared to McIntosh MC501 monoblocks. Would I be better off getting passive sub and let the 501’s drive it?

As an alternative to sub, would a 2-channel equalizer help boost the low frequencies of N802s to make frequency spectrum “flatter” at a given db? I hate to waste my investment on N802s, I mean the spec says it can go down to 30Hz. My reservation of EQ is it stretches out my signal path (dtx EQ has AD and AD built-in, in addition to my Apogee DA in the signal path). Not sure if this latency will lead to video syncing problem for HT application. Also, I don’t want to find myself having tinker with EQ’s instead of enjoying the music. If you have good experience with EQ, please share your experience about the brand(s) you tried.

I will appreciate any suggestions you may have on improving the bass response.

Thanks,
John
jteoh1
seandtaylor99
1,262 posts
 
Disclaimer ... I've never heard any of your gear.
So the reason I'm posting is that I have used a subwoofer with a couple of different speakers and may be able to help in that respect. For reference I use a REL strata, which is a sub that leaves the signal to the main speakers intact and is crossed below their rolloff point. This minimizes the clutter in the signal path, but will not allow you to augment any frequencies currently handled by your main speakers.

If you feel the 802s are lacking midbass (the bass you hear) but the brochure says they extend to 30Hz (and I can believe it ... they're not small) then a subwoofer will probably not help a great deal.

If you're happy with the midbass and just feel that the system lacks "scale, impact, and a sense of power" then adding a sub might be just the ticket.

The reason I say this is that I was in a similar position with Spica Angelus. They went very low but the bass was very controlled, and sounded a bit thin. I added a REL sub crossed at 27Hz (where the main speakers run full range and the sub comes in beneath them) and it helped but never really solved the problem.

I then switched to monitor speakers and kept the REL. My monitors roll off sharply below 50Hz but have ample mid-bass. Adding a sub works much better with these speakers and gives me great midbass, and also a good sense of scale and power.

Some subwoofers (usually more expensive ones) can also act as a high-pass filter to the main speakers. This removes mid-bass duty from the main speakers, and I'm sure it's the optimum approach, but I think you'd be spending in excess of $5k to take this approach with a quality to match the rest of your system.

So, in summary if the midbass is OK you could try a REL or velodyne (I don't think you need thousands of watts in a properly designed sub). If midbass is lacking selling the 802s and putting the money towards a larger speaker (like the 801) might be a better way to go.
krellm7
163 posts
 
Judy426 is always bad mouthing B&W's I would like to know what here system is???????
auaarons
94 posts
 
I can only focus on the MUSIC system aspects, not the HT ones:

1.) How new are the N802s? Do they have at least 200 hours of music playing? If not, run them past 200 hours and then re-evaluate.

2.) Are the N802s standing on soft rug? If so, use the spike feet set. A highly stable platform improves bass response tremendously.

3.) The N802s may be revealing the deficiencies of a weak DVD player used in place of a good hi-end CD player. Even though you use an expensive external DAC, a weak CD/DVD transport is not the way to go. Instead of spending money on a new DAC, go for a great CD player like the Arcam CD23 FMJ which can be purchased used for about $1000.

4.) Speaker Cables - Go to your local Transparent Cables dealer and ask for an evaluation pair of Music Wave Plus or above models to try at home. Transparent cables are fuller sounding in the midrange and bass. Note that they are NOT cheap.

5.) Interconnects - evaluate a pair of Transparent Music Link Plus.

6.) Buying subwoofers for high caliber speakers like the N802s is unnecessary. You already paid big money for a pair of great speakers with great bass. Your components in front of the speakers are just not harnessing the true potential of the speakers.

Feel free to contact me via email instead of using up forum space. Hope this helps.
warrensomebody
8 posts
 
John,

I have a remarkably similar setup, and have experienced similar issues. My livingroom is 34x17x20 and opens into other rooms. I have a pair of N801s and they also seem to be lacking in the very lowest frequencies (or as a friend puts it, "missing that last octive"). I think some of the effect can be attributed to the shear volume of airspace that the 801s need to drive, even with their 15" woofers. But I also think that I'm experiencing room nulls / cancelations due to room dimensions and speaker placement. When listening to frequency sweeps, I can detect 3-6db drop outs at regular intervals.

I read this paper recently which suggested that multiple subwoofers, carefully placed to compensate for room modes might be the way to go: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf. I haven't yet experimented with this, so I can't give you my results. However, I'm considering 2 subs toward the back of the room to offset the woofers in the front. (One of these Saturdays I'll get down to taking some measurements!)

Warren
wc65mustang
524 posts
 
>>Buying subwoofers for high caliber speakers like the N802s is unnecessary.<<
Auaarons is way off base (no pun intended) here. Virtually every speaker system benefits from a subwoofer IF: The subwoofer is carefully matched with the main speaker system and it is postioned correctly in the room. Furthermore a subwoofer for each channel is superior to a single unit responsible for the entire system.
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