Talon-New owner-NO customer service

Robbyat…thank you for your post and letting others know of your unfortunate experience with Rives Audio. While it is certainly true that Rives is entitled to charge whatever they wish to repair out of warranty Talon product, their willingness to do so, how they treat customers, and what they charge for their service reflects their business and ethics, even if it is a product no longer in current production. What I find disturbing about your experience, if it is in fact as you describe, is Rives failure to call you back when they said they would and their somewhat disappointing effort to help solve your problem. Repairing an amplifier should be a simple task for any manufacturer of audio components. At the very least they should have put you in touch with the manufacturer of the amplifier so that you could arrange for service. To suggest replacing an amplifier for $1600 because of a buzz that probably requires nothing more than a couple hours service and an off the shelf part or two, this to me shows a severe lack of principle and business ethics on the part of Rives. I don't think Richard Bird's suggestion of buying a Crown amp and leaving the customer to figure out a way to make it fit is the best solution.

Rives Audio announced their purchase of Talon in the beginning of August so I do not understand why Onhwy61 is making the assumption that you made a “poor decision” for purchasing a product from a company that was out of business, much less saying you “prefer to smear their name in a public forum” when the exposure of such experiences are clearly one of valid purposes of such forums (once again, assuming you have accurately described it). If you’ve only had the Roc for two months, clearly Talon has been a viable company during that period, albeit under new ownership. In fact, to the best of my knowledge Talon never actually went out of business (although there were concerns for a few months); in the end it simply changed hands.

Nrchy, Jeffcott, and Cleaneduphippy: I’m sorry, but I disagree with your comments and find they reflect the kind of attitude that has become all too indicative of the kind of companies whose focus is on how much money they can make in the short term rather than in customer service and support. Unfortunately high-end audio has its fair share of this type of business ethic. Fortunately there are still a large number of dedicated audio companies who share not only a passion for music and the technology that goes into its reproduction, but also appreciate and take care of their customers regardless of how they ended up owning one or more of their products. The reason that companies like Audio Research, Classe, Bryston, Aerial, Pass Labs, Thiel, Ayre, Vandersteen, Conrad Johnson, Jeff Rowland, and VPI, just to name a very few, have been successful and stayed in business for many years is they stand behind their products, even the ones that have been out of production for many years. All too often I think many audiophiles (and audio companies) forget how important the used market is. Audio companies need those with lesser means who take advantage of depreciation cycles to buy up the equipment from those who can afford and want to get their latest product. Just because they are not buying new does not mean that they are not supporting the company whose product they’ve chosen to purchase. When it comes to loudspeakers there are more choices than any other audio component and a great deal of competition. A strong used market for any product, as well as a strong new market, is good for both the manufacturer and the consumer.

Here are two examples of good customer service from my own experience, one directly related to Talon:

I own a Pass Labs Aleph P preamplifier. Technically I’m the 3rd owner although I don’t think the 2nd owner held on to it long enough to really listen to it. Upon its arrival it had a loud hum. The fellow I purchased it from gave me his FedEx account for shipping both ways to and from Pass Labs and offered to pay for any repairs (he also gave me $200 off my purchase price for the inconvenience…very nice seller). I contacted Pass Labs and even though it was out of warranty and I told them I was not the original owner I could not have asked to have been treated better. They repaired the unit at no charge, but did bill the sellers FedEx account for return shipping. Upon arrival I found it was still a bit noisy so I contacted Pass again who were very apologetic and asked me to return it again. They pretty much rebuilt the power supply and once again at no charge to me even though it was out of warranty and I was not the original owner. This time they even paid for return shipping to me. They also put anything they repair in a new box. I have read other similar comments here about Pass Labs exemplary customer service.

Two years ago I bought a pair of Talon Khorus loudspeakers from the original owner, mostly because it was a local sale (and I’d read all the rave reviews). One of the grill covers was damaged by the first owner and he had let me know that he would purchase a replacement set for me from Talon. On the day that I took delivery of the speakers I was quite surprised to receive a phone call from Talon asking me where I would like the new grills sent, and if they could be of any assistance in my set up of the speakers. I spent the better part of an hour talking with Mike Farnsworth about set up and crossovers. He offered to sell me the latest version of the X crossover for $750 (at the time Talon’s advertised price for a new crossover was $1500, $2000 installed plus shipping both ways). I’m pretty handy technically so he also offered to walk me through the install over the phone so it would not be necessary to spend several hundred extra in shipping expense. It is unfortunate that events in Mike’s personal life resulted in his not having the necessary time or energy to put into running Talon because he certainly was good with his customers.

“Rives has been a LONG time member and contributor to this board, and has many times gone WAY out of his way to help others. To many here, his reputation is WELL known and appreciated.”

Jeffcott, the old saying ‘action speaks louder than words’ applies here. You are right that Rives is pretty outspoken on this forum, but then they are not the first manufacturer to use such forums…it’s a good form of marketing afterall. So far we only have one side of this story and a lot of opinions on how it should be interpreted. Perhaps Rives will join in and offer his side of the story, but until that time we’ll just have to go with the experience Robbyat has described. I do find it interesting that a few here are so willing to come to Rives’ defense when someone has a complaint about the service they received.

“Most active subwoofer amps don't last long...that why the warranty is usually very short. I agree with Undertow, subs are very simple to work on...IMO, get another amp from parts express if that one can't be fixed...$300-$400.”

Sogood51, where on earth did you come up with this statistic? I have rarely heard of problems with quality brands such as Velodyne, REL, or Hsu, one of which I’ve owned for a long time with no problems. Perhaps you’re thinking of the cheap crap sold with a lot of inexpensive HT gear. There is no reason why a quality made subwoofer amp should not last as long as any other well made amp. And for those occasional repairs that are required I doubt many here owning high-end caliber subs are going to want to throw just any old plate amp in as a replacement.

Finally, the Talon Roc is not an ‘orphan’ product, but still part of the Talon line. Apparently they have switched sources for amps in their current production and the price is $1600, probably as much as or even than more than Robbyat paid for his Roc. Personally, I’d attempt some of the constructive comments in this thread if you’re not technically challenged. If these don’t bring success look for a good local amplifier tech or try to locate the OEM and see what they have to offer. The Roc is a great product and worth a little effort on your part to find a solution.

And now Richard, it’s your turn. As a very happy Talon owner I hope you will have some encouraging words to add to this discussion.

Tnadu,

Let me ask you a question. At what point does a manufacturer "draw the line" especially when dealing with with products that are sold by second and third parties? I would be much more sympathetic to Robyatt if he had been the orginal purchaser of the Talon Roc and had bought it from Talon through one of it's authorized dealers. If that had been the case, then Rives should have more responsive in their responds to him. The big problems start coming up when products get sold over the Internet by second and third parties, and unauthorized dealers and then something happens to that product. Apparently, you feel that manufacturer should "bend over backwards" to take care of the problem. And the truth is Rives offered to take care of the problem for $1600. If that what it cost to replace the amp, then that's the cost to replace the amp. To expect Talon/Rives to go the "extra mile" for the second owner is unrealistic because let's face it, neither Talon or Rives made any money on that second sale. More and more you're starting to see disclaimers from manufacturers about products sold over the Internet and through unauthorized dealers and second and third parties. Don't believe me, starting visiting some of their websites.

I guess we need to clean up some issues here. First, we bought the assetts to Talon Audio Technologies. The transaction was similar to a bankruptcy sale, in that we did only buy the assetts. Thus technically all speakers made prior to our purchase of the company do not have the company behind it that warranted it. Now, does that mean we would abandon loyal Talon customers--absolutely not. The fact is with speakers unless they are abused failure and warranty repair is very rare. The plate amps are the only thing that we have had any calls on (other than one pair of Hawks that was literaly dropped by Fed-X--what a debacle that was).

To answer the original question about the plate amp: The original plate amp on the ROC was okay, not great. We have found a much better amp, but it's a different size. In order to make it useable for an existing ROC owner we either have to custom make a box for it, or get the ROC sent back in and rework the cabinet to accomodate the new amp. At the price we quoted $1600 we make almost nothing, but I recognized it's not a great value. The customer is paying for cabinet rework which doesn't lead to superior performance. Thus we just ordered one of the new Crown XTI amps and are in the process of testing it. These amps retail for $1000 and may be better than the plate amp we found. We make nothing on the customer buying a Crown amp, they can buy it from many sources. Our company concern is to provide customer service, look for viable solutions for the customer, even if that solution is for them to buy an amplifier from a source other than our own.

In the end, we absolutely want to service prior Talon owners, even second owners, but we can't be financially liable for their repairs or the new Talon will be out of business. We intend to keep the company financially strong and around for many years to come. We will continue product development and will be showing a new speaker at CES. We invite anyone at CES to come visit us there.

Tnadu:
Your remarks (with my compliments) are as clear and level headed as any of the responses. You raise cogent and valid points. As you have addressed me, please allow me to further clarify the position I was trying to take.

With Rives now having chimed in with his own perspective, perhaps the view to all will become more clear.

First, I do believe that the used market has risks. I think that if one looks around him, it can be observed that most used markets have risks (as well as potential benefits). As such, I believe that some of my remarks are simply a review of market reality. Let me phrase this more clearly: The best time for a potential buyer to investigate the service level that he can expect from a manufacturer is BEFORE he makes the purchase.

I can understand why my words could be have construed to be defending Rives as a business entity. That was NOT my point. My point was in response to what I percieved of Robyatt's original post. What I observed was an AG member with very minimal forum activity choosing not to communicate with the forum in calm language asking for "what do I do next", but rather communicating with the forum in the manner of a direct FLAME. His message may have been very valid to pass along to the forum, but the style of the message in addressing the forum regarding another member might have been more carefully directed. As Rives has been a long-time contributor to this forum, it seems only appropriate to me to bring to the attention of the readers of this thread the long term positive contributions that he has made. As you yourself said, 'action speaks louder than words'. I believe that is is appropriate to consider ALL of the actions.

That was my intended point.

Thank-you Rives for clearing up an issue that was a matter of concern to me. Being a Talon owner, I needed to see a response that still kept us Talon owners "in the fold" of the new business plan, ie: warranty and warranty issues...8^)