Clayton Audio Class A amps. Need amp advice

"06-02-15: Joeinid
Class D has gotten so much better, but in my opinion suffers from sort of a one-note bottom (some are better than others). Plenty of bass in Class D but not as much articulation and differentiation as from better solid state."

............................................................

I have to disagree with your bass remark. I believe you when you say some class D amps can have a 'one note bass' bottom end,but so do some tube amps and some A/AB amps I have heard over the years. I don't think it is so much the class of amp distinction per se... but rather the design implementation used in the amp.

I own the Merrill Audio Veritas mono block amps which are a class D design. These amps do the bass range like no other amp I have ever heard. They slam with total articulation of the lower registers... Of course I have not heard all amps out there but what the Merrills do is simply beyond reproach.

I see we have gone a long way past the amp recommendations. Allow me to throw my two cents in.

You like tubes and power. You love your CJs. You want some bass control. You would prefer to buy used like so many of us.There are several ways to go here. You like Manley gear. I would like to recommend the VTL MB-300 that are used on the Gon right now. They have all you truly need, and power to drive about anything. I have a pair, and I am delighted. The only caveat is you should replace the filter capacitors ($40x4 from Digi-Key) and do a couple CHEAP factory updates since they don't seem to have been done... and wallah, you've got your new amps. They are incredibly underrated also very inexpensive, and there is no question they are more powerful than the Manley 250. Granted the Manley has the EL-34 but you won't miss that. The amps will be dead quiet once the old filter caps are replaced.

I wanted Claytons myself, but I didn't get them. Holding out for Pass Labs, but I'm happy with my tubes, and I have a lot of them. I have both ARC Ref 610t and VTL Wotans, in addition to ARC Classic 150s, and the MB-300. (I obviously like tubes.). You should be able to sell your CJ for what the VTL will cost you...

Guys - Thanks so much for all of the great advice, ideas and feedback! Really - great stuff and I appreciate it! Well Here We Go - talk - about doing a total 360 - and going in a total other direction.

I am one of those guys that reads a lot and listens as much as I can to as much as I with as little free time as I have. I try to make calculated, smart, informed choices and allow my head to have a lot input in most cases but in this case I kind of shot from the hip and went with my gut / heart! Plenty of reading and some listening was def involved but it was a pretty big plunge so to speak I think.

I posted some of this info on my DAC thread but I wanted to share with you guys as it is an amp and speaker change that we were all talking about and wanted to share my change of direction with you.

Gone now are my preamps (ARC, BAT) my beloved speakers (Ascendo's) and amps (CJ's - Krell).

I have pulled the trigger on these new speakers and amps. Would love any feedback, recommendations or criticism's. I took a pretty big chance I think because my new speakers and amps are so different and such a change from where I was. They should be here later this week or early next week!

As yo know I was struggling to find the right amps for my speakers to the point of then getting into swapping speakers.

In a nutshell What I wanted was real driver control with grip, resolution, detail and great transparency that one gets from a high quality SS amp yet I also still wanted the beauty I had grown to accustomed to from my CJ tubes, the warmth and enveloping 3-D realness of tubes. I love tubes and did not want to live without that essential ingredient but I no longer could bear the trade offs. The slow and rolled off top and bottom with loosey, goosey bottom end. The 140 watt tube amp that was driving a 88 db efficient speaker with a tough Kevlar bass driver. Was I going to change speaker or amp or both.

My stated goal at this point was to try and find a speaker amp combo that could give me my tube glory and beauty I have grown so fond of but with Grip, Speed, Detail and transparency without having to spend an exorbitant amount on a monster tube amp.

I was first leaning toward Class A monster SS amps which started with this thread but not matter how good a SS amp is it is still not tubes. How do I get both. How did I get what I am after. I am not sure I have pulled it off or not but I took a shot on what I think maybe the solution.

I just went hole hog and pulled the Trigger and made the "HUGE CHANGE"!

Again, my new speakers and amps should be here later this week or early next week.

For the first time I am purchasing amps that were specifically designed and made for my speakers by the same designer from the same company. Something new for me!

That said my new speakers and a new amp are from a real small boutique company in India that I hope will allow me to pull this off:

Rethm Saadhana Speakers (2015):

The speakers are single / driver / high efficiency / wide banders with a self powered built in bass module.

Here is the info:
Rethm Saadhana Speakers (2015):
103db, 18hz-20khz, 8ohm
Minimum amplification power: 2 wpc
Full Range - Horn loaded labyrinth:(7" – 4") length
Full range driver: Custom designed 7 inch paper cone w/whizzer w/ Custom designed Self driven bass modules: 3 Bass Drivers per enclosure
3 x 6.5 inch paper cone
Sealed Isobaric chamber:
Bass labyrinth:( 4' – 8" )
w/ one monobloc per enclosure
FET amplifier
Max. output: 210 wpc @ 4 ohms
Dimensions: H x D x W : 3'-5" )x( 2'-4 ½" )x( 8.5" )
Weight per enclosure: 88 lbs

Here is the matching amp that comes in 2 boxes. 1 - box holds all the tubes and the other holds the power supply tethered by a cable. They look like mono blocks but are attached by the cable and it is an integrated, stereo amp.

Rethm Gaanam Integrated amp.
They don't list all the specs per say but here some info if your interested. It interested me enough to order these brand new speakers and amps and we have all chatted a lot so I wanted to share in the event your interested.

This is a pretty unique amp that was again voiced and designed specifically to match the speakers perfectly.

Here is the designer talking about designing the amp.

The criteria we started with were the following:

1. It had to be between 10 and 20 wpc.
2. It had to be Single Ended pure class A.

We use a unique circuit for the power amp section whereby the ONLY tubes are the output tubes. No gain stage tubes, no buffer tubes, no driver tubes. The preamp section provides more than adequate gain, and instead of driver tubes, we have small, custom designed "driver transformers". This enabled us to get a beautiful sound that had all the warmth and dimensionality that makes valves so unique, while enabling a clarity and dynamic that is not often found in traditional valve amplifiers. To enhance control, we decided on a solid state buffer in this amplifier. We also have zero feedback.

After much experimenting with several valve types, we settled on a single-ended configuration using the 6C33C valve. It produces 16 wpc. The 6C33C valve is, on technical spec's itself, an amazing valve. It has an extremely high Trans-conductance value ( in excess of 30 mA/V -- as compared to the 12.5 of a KT 120 ) which facilitates much better current flow. And, it has an amazingly low Internal Resistance ( 130 ohms -- as compared to 3000 ohms on a KT 120 ) which is almost comparable to solid-state devices! This enables a much higher speed of signal voltage transfer. It also has very low anode voltages ( 120 v -- as compared to most valves that go from a few hundred volts to in excess of 1000 v in the case of the 845 valve ) -- which makes it a much safer device.

The preamp section uses two 6922 valves, one per channel, and uses an extremely simple circuit. The power supply is choke regulated, and here again, we have zero feedback.

We also get all our transformers (the output transformers, driver transformers, power transformer and choke) cryogenically treated as we see a substantial improvement in performance with greater transparency, detail retrieval and delicacy to the reproduction.

Wish me luck guys. I hope this takes my rig to the next level.

Again, Any advice or feedback, criticism or anything is always really appreciated.

I know this started as a Clayton thread but you guys have been great and I wanted to share with you the direction I chose and why? Its scary and exciting at the same time and I think its part of what makes this hobby great!

Very interesting.... where did you audition these?
I never heard of Rethm before, but they do sound intriguing.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you.

Hi Jmcgrogan2

Thanks so much for the response!

An acquaintance of a former co-worker friend was kind enough to let us listen to them but they were the last / older version of the Saadhana speakers sometimes labeled as the V2. I also got to hear the newer / current version of the model down from the Saadhana, the Rethm Maarga. I liked the Maarga A LOT and proceeded to learn all I could about this company and the designer. I learned that all of the new Rethm speakers, the current models have their own, new custom drivers and I took the shot.

After I did a lot of research and a lot of thinking I realized what I was really looking / hoping for? It is the baseline for my approach to a new speaker / amp combo search.

What I was / am hoping for is (and it is a tall order for sure):

Ultra high, pin-point clarity with reach out and touch, precise resolution is something I would love. That microscopic type of resolution and clarity that provides a real uber defined sound stage and 3d images with image separation and delineation only this type of resolution can provide. The problem is to acquire this level of clarity, resolution and neutrality one must usually also have to accept a somewhat sterile, semi-etched or analytical or non-musical presentation.

My hope is for a speaker / amp combo to approach and blend this uber level of clarity and resolution with a smooth, liquid and tube-like natural presentation that is relaxed yet also pops. One that is not etched or analytical and is free from listener fatigue.

To get all of the above it will certainly need to be a creative and outside the box, unique speaker and amp combo? One that smartly and successfully blends a bunch of different technologies and topologies into a diverse yet synergistic package. Something like the mixture of tubes and solid state and Cyro treatments with high efficiency single drivers that run wide open that have build in bass modules that support from bottom up with custom band-pass and volume controls for different room tuning to even have a chance at attaining even part of what I am after.

Now I understand no speaker is perfect and no speaker can do everything for everyone. Some of the things I was willing to give up in my search were huge SBL's or super loud rock, grudge or Techno or super complex large and loud orchestra music. I want to rock out sometimes but it is not a DNA prerequisite. I don't need all word slam either but I am after full range speakers that convey it all. The bass matters and a lot it just doesn’t have to be high end Magico, Wilson, Focal, Raidho bass slam.

I want Full, Rich, Fast, NO FLAB, Accurate, Tuneful, Detailed bass with genuine feel that supports the rest of the entire frequency spectrum. I am serious about bass I just don’t need the very last word in all world slam. I am asking for a lot and maybe I will be let down. I am sort of hoping for my cake and hoping to eat it too but why not. It is yet to be seen if this is realistic or not because as we all know they need to be in your own room in your system listening to your music fully broken until he really know for sure.

Other than listening to the two sets of speakers I listed above another important decision factor was I did a lot of reading and went after as much info as I could find.

A huge fan of these speakers and I mean a huge fan is Saran Ebaen of 6moons. I understand reviews are just that reviews but Srajan has a decade into informing us about the progress of this company and its speaker line. If you read all of these reviews that took place over the last decade or so you start to get a real picture of the company and its growth and evolution and the idea that Srajan is doing more than just reviewing these speakers. He owns them and uses them and adores them and has bought each version of the Saadhana. This long term perspective gave me some great insight into how these current models came to where they are today.

Srajan really outlined where and how they came to be today. With all of my purchases I always try to do research and be smart about it and do my due diligence but I am noting this here today because I have never been giving such a long term, clear view into a product or company for any of purchase I have made and I wanted to share with you guys.

It really started and ended with me listening to these speakers and how they offered me so much of what I am looking for that had me making this decision. It did and always should come down to how they sound to you. What made the process more fun and enlightening was the great reading and insight provided by Srajan. I recommend to anyone even those not even interested in buying these speakers to read these reviews. I am a lot smarter for it.