B&W 803D crossover caps


I am considering an upgrade of the crossover capacitors in by B&W 803Ds, particularly the mid and HF coupling caps.

I took out the top bass driver to find out what caps were installed. It looks like for the diamond tweeter B&W uses a Mundorf Supreme silver/gold, 4.7 mfd 1200V. For the mid driver there are two; a 47 mfd Mundorf MKP 400V series coupling cap (in series with the driver) and a 10 mfd Mundorf Supreme siver/gold bypassing cap (parallel to the driver).

I was thinking about changing out all three, but have a few concerns.

I was going to replace the 10 mfd, 4.7 mfd Supreme silver/gold with Supreme silver/gold/oil. Would there be enough of a difference in these two types to justify the cost? I also do not want to make the upper end any brighter.

I am also concerned about the long term reliability of oil filled caps, as some failures have been reported in warmer environments. I wonder if B&W did not use the silver/gold/oils for that reason.

The biggest impact I suspect will come from the replacement of that series 47 mfd MKP. I would probably use either the Mundorf MCap EVO (Al metalization), MCap EVO oil (Al/oil), or the MCap EVO silver/gold/oil. All three are the same size for 47 mfd, and will fit to replace the MKP. Barring the issues about oil, which might be the best sounding? Again, I want to avoid too much enhancement of the upper midrange.
dhl93449
No it would not be worth it to stay in the Mundorf family. If you want a much better sounding cap top to bottom, then go with the Jupiter copper foil in bees wax cap. Nice step up for sure! I know as I did it. Unless to go with Jupiter or Duelund, stay put.

Yes the Evo is your best bet on the 47uf.
Grannyring

Thanks for your input. Reinforced what I was thinking. The cost to do the swap to the silver/gold/oils would be about $1000 for both channels. Serious money.

I think I will stick with Mundorf at this point, as I want to maintain the character of the 803. The Dueland are stupid money and there is no place to put them without adding a lot of wiring inductance to the network. The Jupiter are about $500 more than the Mundorf for a complete swap sans the 47 mfd, and the 10 mfd 100V part is just a bit too long to fit on the crossover pc board. But looks like a serious contender for the 4.7 mfd feeding the diamond tweeter if I want to do that alone.

I also discovered that all the bass driver mounting screws were barely tight. Torquing those up made a large difference in the bass response. I also torqued the tension bar on the mid-range driver and that also improved sonics quite a bit as well. Freebes that didn't cost me a dime.
I don't wish to sound to basic here but I believe more bypass caps may be the only sensible thing. Have you asked B&W-- or an authorized repair center? Are you up on any crossover design changes for the newest series? ?Have you spoken to Mundorf? And lastly,seriously, have you had a lot of success modifying crossover in other comparably high quality intelligently deigned speakers
Dhl93449,

My experience with the Mundorf S/G/O was that they added too much emphasis in the treble. I do not have any experience with the S/G capacitors but I suspect I would like them even less than the S/G/O as I would expect them to be brighter and maybe a bit harsher. Given a choice between those two I'd go with the S/G/O, but as I'll describe below, at this level I'd go with the Clarity MR capacitors.

My crossover journeys have ultimately led me to Duelund CAST-Cu capacitors, however, along the way a capacitor that I liked a lot was the Clarity MR. They are fast, extremely quiet, dynamic, very well balanced from top to bottom, spatial and holographic. To those attributes the Duelund CAST-Cu adds a naturalness of tone, greater harmonic richness, and I think perhaps greater sustain although it's been too long since I made that change to likely recall that attribute accurately. Also, I would say that the Clarity MR beats the Duelund VSF-Cu in everything but tone and harmonic richness. I recommend the VSF or CAST ahead of the MR, but unless going with a Duelund crossover, my experience leads me to recommend the Clarity MR without hesitation. I would add, however, that Bill's experience with the Jupiter copper foil caps should not be ignored either, I just don't have any experience with them. Again, based on my experience, and considering budget, if it were my project I would use the Clarity MR's throughout, connecting 2x10micF + 1x27micF caps in parallel to give me the 47micF equivalent for that big value. I strongly prefer the Clarity MR over the Mundorf S/G/O, and as I said, I'm quite confident I would like the Mundorf S/G even less - but comments such as these should be placed in the context of one's system.

Also, depending on what internal wire is already in the speakers I would also consider rewiring the speakers. On my projects I have had very satisfactory results using Kimber TCX. The effect of doing that should not be underestimated. Kimber's Hyper Pure grade copper has no grain that I can hear. Wherever copper wiring is used in my system (interconnects, speaker cables, crossover wiring, speaker wiring) that is what I use. They system is very, very free of grain.

What resistors are in the speakers? My preferred resistors are Mundorf M-Resist 20W. I think Bill likes Mils? Others will recommend the Duelunds, though in my systems I preferred the Mundorfs. For me the M-Resist give a very nice, solid weight to acoustic strings - I don't like plucked acoustic strings to sound too wispy so have come to like the M-Resist a lot.

I do have a couple of questions though. In your original post you said that you wanted to upgrade your crossovers, and in a subsequent post you said that you wanted to maintain the character of the 803. So my questions are: (1) what are you hearing (or not hearing, as the case may be) that has you motivated to upgrade the crossover - what improvements are you seeking?, and (2) what part of the character of the speakers are you wanting to maintain? In what direction are you wanting to take your speakers and/or your system?

Also, what inductors are in the speakers?

Finally, as an upgrade example, I am currently helping a friend with a crossover upgrade to his Silverline LaFolia speakers. The LaFolia uses well-integrated tour-de-force of drivers including the Dynaudio Esotar T330D tweeter, so I have a pretty good feel for where we are headed. For that project we are using:

- Clarity MR 630 VDC caps
- North Creek 10awg inductors
- Mundorf M-Resist 20W resistors
- Kimber TCX internal speaker wire
- WBT Topline binding posts

Unless my friend were going to spend a lot more money I think this will be a very nice setup.

Cheers,

John
ptss

Do not worry. I have plenty of experience modding equipment. If you doubt it, see my post on mods for the Spectral DMC-10 in the WhatsBest forum.

BTW, my version is just the "803D". I have it on good authority that the later version "803 Diamond" uses only the Supreme Oil, not the SG or the SGO. This info was provided by looking at a replacement crossover for the Diamond version. Seems like that is a big step back, according to the only review I have found to rank all three Mundorf Supremes (humblehomemadehifi).

Call B&W regarding crossover caps? Are you kidding?

A simple swap out of a crossover caps is not rocket science. It will not damage the speaker or destroy my amplifiers. At this level of performance, the results will probably be very subtle, but that does not mean they are not worth doing.

Manufacturers often make design decisions based on cost as well as performance. We have an opportunity to re-evaluate that decision and remove cost from the equation, up to certain limits.