B&W 'New' 800 Series

We have blessings from Ptss. Lets have some fun.

Ptss - I've reviewed the TAS Factory Tour and the 802 D3 details and am impressed with all improvements; and the common sense used.

Let's discuss Common Sense first.  
Fact - All B&W 800 series speakers including the latest D3's are voiced in an Anechoic Chamber. Click on the link. 

http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/sound-lab/tools-of-the-trade-the-anechoic-chamber/

An anechoic chamber ("an-echoic" meaning non-reflective, non-echoing or echo-free) is a room designed to completely absorb reflections of either sound or electromagnetic waves. They are also insulated from exterior sources of noise.

What does this B&W speaker voicing strategy mean for the average Music Lover or Audiophile. Well I have been at this audio hobby consciously since I was about 13. I have yet to come across any Audiophile or Music Lover,  not associated with the business in some way, that has a room that looks anything like that.  Now I did reach out to B&W a few weeks ago because, well I always look to learn and I was curious about how they managed to get such low frequency numbers out of such small boxes on the new D3's. That's another discussion....if you like........    

This was their response.

***********************************

Bowers & Wilkins

The trouble with measuring in real rooms, especially where bass response is concerned, is that they are all different. If you try to measure any speaker in a real room, you get all sorts of measurement deviations due to reflections and room modes. Not only that, but you get a different result if you change rooms or if you merely change the position in the same room. Anechoic conditions are chosen for measurement, as they at least define a consistent and repeatable environment. It is the job of the speaker designer to choose an anechoic curve alignment (roll-off-shape) that sounds right when the speaker is listened to in a real room and this tends to be different for each model. 

Kind regards,
Bowers & Wilkins 

***********************************

So no new news here. We all knew this already, right ?
Now Common Sense ?    The speakers are designed and voiced in an Anechoic room. This is by far IMO, the biggest reason B&W 800 series are hit and miss with many audiophiles. I have owned a set of B&W speakers in my collection since the 70's. IMO - those with a stubborn British type (attitude) personality, who also have flexibility in the room in regards to speaker positioning, and damping have a chance with them long term. The other personality type - Audiophile frequent flyer - that prefers plug and play;  drop them into a room maybe play with some electronics tuning and call it a day. You will never get to what they can actually do.  So do they make sense for the average audiophile putting them into his shared living room with the big TV and imported glass coffee table  ?  

Now how about studios. Definitely - they know what to do with them. They use them like a tool. They are very popular with studios since the 801 set the standard years ago. Now here is a real problem.

Audiophile Nigel reads that his latest album which he absolutely loves was mastered at Sterling Sound in New York.

http://sterling-sound.com/

He finds out that they use 800 series.  He says to himself   "Man, I got to get me a pair of those".   But Nigel lives in a house with his wife and two kids and his stereo in his living room. And it looks like it is going to be that way for a long time.  I ask you - does it not make more sense to get speakers that were voiced under real world conditions.  IMO, IME .......

Bo1972 - It doens't make sense to compare B&W with B&W, you need to compare the 800D3 series with competitors in the same price range.

In order to do proper comparisons with other competitors, one needs to learn first how to properly set up a specific brand of speaker. You need to know the history. You don't toss them into a room with a bunch of other speakers and start manipulating electronics for imaging.  Your piss and vinegar attitude shows a lot of passion - fine;  but it is also a little misguided imo. Your bias can be forgiven because you are in the business. You can't help yourself. But for those of us that are not connected to the business in any way (manufacturers, dealers, distributors, special relationships) your's and others biases on these forums is very evident in the posts. The fact is all these forums represent a tip of the iceberg scenario anyway.  And there is no such thing as bad publicity.  B&W is laughing all the way to the bank .  

Show us one of your rooms with "ANY" speaker setup.  or are you going to ignore this again and keep playing politician. .  

coffee time up guys .....later...

Why a demo with Rotel make sense?

The quality B&W offers today cannot convince me at all. There are too many limitations. 

Classe it not bad, in our world it lacks quality as well. B&W is owner of Classe. On political choices it is used. This I can understand. It is still by far not the best student of the class. So does it add something in the world of audio? We don’t think so. 

I can even demo it and explain in details what is missing. This counts both for B&W and Classe. The only reason why we say these things is that we can proof them. We are only focussed on the best sound possible. So B&W has to proof they are the best. This is how audio needs to be used. 

There were different B&W owners who were irritated about the negative info B&W gave on their older models during the show they gave. The week after the show, these stories were the ones people in audio were talking about. Tell me what is here to laugh about? 

I will try to get a dialoge with B&W in 2016 if they are prepared for a shootout. 

Audio is all about the best you can get and the truth, and not about a story on what people would like to hear!!

Ct0517, How do I do that? Thanks.

ok lets have some more fun. I broke this up into two posts. Ptss, I  try to answer your question from my experiences in the next post. Going to try to use youtube to illustrate something. In order for readers to participate here, you will need a computer with built in speakers and decent external headphones (not the kind that came with your phone) that can be plugged into the computer as well.

With the holidays approaching, lets say you are shopping at a big mall. You are walking through and hear music playing. You approach it gets louder. A nice retail Audio storefront. A dying breed ? You stand in the doorway and listen to the music that is playing.

Click on the following youtube link.   No affiliation to the video.

1) Please first listen to it through your built in computer speakers. No external headphones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiVL36Fp7i0


The reason I did this is because I have been to dealer showrooms where the music sounded just like that youtube. Speakers sound bright. There just happens to be a large tonal imbalance with my Lenovo laptop's built in speakers. They don't do bass well.

If this is what you hear in your actual room with your home speakers it could mean a number of things including too much room volume for the speakers, amplifiers that don't have the balls to deliver on the B&W bass requirements going down to 3 ohms. The fixes should all include trying to establish good tonal balance between highs, medium, lows. When it's there you will know. This can include moving the speakers closer to the front wall for bass reinforcement. But this will also collapse the soundstage depth, and will interfere with the soundstage definition. Another option is adding subwoofer/s. But this also gets more complicated. Its another discussion. Another option is to bring in more power. B&W always respond with better bass with more power. If tube amps, make sure the transformers are good quality and my experience has been the 4 ohms tap produces the best bass. With SS Class A and A/b amplifiers make sure the wattage specs double down. Some like McIntosh another type of SS design with autoformers. They will all sound different.

2) Now please listen to the same link but this time with your "external headphones plugged" into your computer. I have a pair of Denon and Grados. The sound with my headphones becomes more balanced. The music now has meat on the bones. Do you hear it ?

Comments....

Ptss - Ct0517, How do I do that?

This new audiogon format does not allow me to link specific audiogon posts only pages. See the first post on this page for more info. The relevant text is shown below.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et-2-tonearm-owners?page=31

I don't usually re-read my posts. I think I might be a little worried about what I might have actually said. Sometimes the morning coffee goes to your head. There was some discussion around amplifiers. which came around to remembering that the Speaker is the Alpha over the Amplifier and that the Room is the Alpha over the Speaker.

In regards to how one chooses the type/design of Speaker first and then narrowing it down. taken from that previous page post.

IMO, IME

There are a few rules (guidelines) in audio. The rules that revolve around the speakers themselves, have a big effect on the amplifier design.
For example if we put our experiences aside and, come into this as if we were new to the hobby. Consider these three questions.
Consider each as a separate consideration onto itself. A sort of silo.

1) What if a person wants to reproduce full range music. What majority would not want this ? To hear all that was recorded.
2) What if a person wants good efficiency - again who doesn't really want this...no different than installing a furnace/air conditioner ? We check off the high efficiency box if we can. This also leads to lower utility bills, saving the planet, just make sense...
3) What if the person wants the reproducers "speakers" to take up a small area - un-obtrusive. Bookshelf size - Again if you could why not ? Who really wants 8 foot towers in their living room? Or those huge speakers that need to be disguised as huge sculptures in the dwelling to work - really ?

Well you can only have two of the three above. If someone doesn't believe it; run through the math and the scenarios of the 3 options.
If a friend asks me today for an opinion, and I know he has not already been made biased by reviews, dealers, forums, etc... I will say take your pick of the two that most appeal to you. Then look at the one that got left out. Whichever one it is - go the opposite to it in design - and if you can accept that, you're done. Your path is clear. Go find that speaker ! All choices in between are a compromise -

The previous youtube example with the 804 and 805 demonstrate speakers that try to accomplish points 1 and 3.

So lets say with the above approach a person identifies 3 speaker candidates.
I would if I was spending a small fortune on these speakers.
 
1) First call the speaker manufacturer direct (not the dealer) and get details. No one knows more about the speakers than the designer/manufacturer. If step one passes ****
2) Arrange to demo them in your own space. if this is not possible,
3) Demo them in the dealer space with your amp and music. Consider how close their room is to yours.
4) If you can't demo what you buy will be based on point one + friends, and other recommendations.

****
If the manufacturer representative will not give you the time of day and sends you to a dealer. Move to the next speaker.
Tell the manufacturer about your room volume, listening habits, and how YOU would like to have the speakers positioned - ideally.  
Find out how the speakers were designed. Ask him. Does he listen to Bach or AC/DC in his dedicated room, or his living room
(maybe he is a boutique maker ?) What amps is he using? There will always be 3 or 4 amps any speaker maker has at his shop. This is too much of a niche business for a manufacturer to build a speaker that only works with one amplifier type. If the amplifiers he mentions represent different designs, then you have found a speaker design that will probably work with different amps. Make sure you find out the different brands and model and if they are both tube and SS designs. If the speaker is rated 50 - 200 watts ask him how much the presentation will change with your preferred room setup with 25, 50 and 200 and 400 watts. (Both SS and Tube)
If discussions go well, go to the dealer to hear the new speakers; or start searching for used speakers like this.

If he gives you the B&W story (voiced in an anechoic chamber) you know you will have your work cut out for you. Are you sure you really want this speaker?
You can see what kind of room treatment is used in that youtube video. And the sound in that video may be too revealing still for some people. Further damping needed on the highs.  

And also sometimes you need to read between the lines with speaker reviews as well. Here is a clear warning to an Audiophile.

************************************************

"Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components."

************************************************

These words tell me this Speaker's studio role comes first. To let the master engineer hear everything so he can do his/her job. It is not this speaker's design/job to present nice warm musical music with every piece of music you own. The Audiophile purchasing the speaker described here will be dealing with a level of resolution, that every micro level - wire change will make a difference. Is this what you really what ? Or do you want to just lay back in your chair and listen to music.
This quote btw is from the Stereophile review of the 801 Matrix. Now the funny thing is some will read that and actually say to themselves; "that sounds really cool" and be attracted to it. In the end you will drive yourself batty because what really counts most here is is the quality of the original recording file that is sent to the mastering studios. Good recordings sound great, bad ones sound bad. Some speakers (not the 800 series) are able to make even bad recordings sound tolerable.