2. analog
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interesting phenomena in the cutting room

We've (my friend Bob and myself) been working on an LP cutting lathe for some years. Its been a while refurbishing the lathe itself, finding parts and solving problems/puzzles, rebuilding the electronics, etc.

The lathe itself is a Scully, the cutterhead a Westerex 3D and the electronics the 1700 series built for the cutterhead by Westerex.

About 6 weeks ago we finally hit upon the magic combination of stylus temperature, vacuum, depth of cut, etc. It works beautifully! So we have been playing with parameters, including different amplifiers. The stock amplifiers were built about 1972 and are solid state.

Now those of you that know me know that I am all about tubes. But the stock amps worked quite well! As we gained familiarity with the system, we found out why: the Westerex cutting system is a high efficiency cutterhead- it does not take a lot of power to make the head work. It can easily cut grooves that no cartridge could ever keep up with, and do so without breaking a sweat. So the amps, which can make 125 watts, are loafing through the most difficult passages.

I had a Dyna ST-70 that I had rebuilt so for fun we swapped that amplifier in and it did quite well. Our next step is to use a set of our M-60s, as the cutterhead is an easy load relative to most loudspeakers.

What is interesting about this is that we can make cuts that literally demonstrate the audible differences between amplifiers, something that can be demonstrated on any playback system.

Its also apparent that the cutting process is relatively unlimited as a media compared to any other recording system. The dynamic range is well beyond that of analog tape or any digital system- like I said, it can cut grooves with such range that no cartridge could possibly keep up, yet is dead silent (if the lacquer is OK, that is). The real limitation in LP recording is the playback apparatus, not the cutters.

There is a fun little forum website for more information called 'Secrets of the Lathe Trolls'. Here's a post on that side made by my friend Bob (Bob has run a recording studio for some 20 years and was a roommate of mine in college):

http://lathetrolls.phpbbweb.com/viewtopic.php?p=19435&mforum=lathetrolls#19435
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rauliruegas
13,084 posts
 
Dear friends: IMHO D2D must be the only way to make LP recordings but this is more easy to tell than to do it for any LP manufacturer.

I own several/many D2D recordings coming from diferent LP labels, including " modern " ones by Acoustic Sounds. ) and till today no one of those labels are near of almost all the Sheffield Labs D2D quality level " performance ".

The D2D recording process is really a continuous " over stress " for all the people involved with because the recording is live with out the facilities that gives the tape to edit the recording in any way and I suppose that not all  recording engineers have not only the knowledge level but skills like SL.

Tape decks ( any ) is always a limitation in the recording process. I own all the D2D SL and own too the samples made it from the tape deck/master tapes and even that are very good can't compare in any way to its " brother " D2D sample.

As I posted in the thread there are many limitations in the overall recording process, the tape deck is one of those limitations.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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rauliruegas
13,084 posts
 
Dear bdp24: This is what M.Lavigne posted last november:

"""  similar project now happening is the Debussy solo piano recording by Ilyn Iten from Wave Kinetics Music. this was recorded last May in upstate New York from the same mic feed in 30ips 1/2" tape and Quad dsd. there will be analog tape offered along with 45rpm pressings, and Quad dsd along with 2xdsd, regular dsd, and all manner of PCM too. not sure there will be a PCM based vinyl pressing, but this recording will certainly demonstrate the best of analog verses the best of digital. right now I have a few cuts from the recording in Quad dsd and it is an outstanding recording. """

That project is really interesting and more interesting will be to listen that recording in those diferent formats.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
myles_b_astor's avatar
myles_b_astor
134 posts
 
Raul writes:Dear friends: IMHO D2D must be the only way to make LP recordings but this is more easy to tell than to do it for any LP manufacturer.

I own several/many D2D recordings coming from diferent LP labels, including " modern " ones by Acoustic Sounds. ) and till today no one of those labels are near of almost all the Sheffield Labs D2D quality level " performance ".

The D2D recording process is really a continuous " over stress " for all the people involved with because the recording is live with out the facilities that gives the tape to edit the recording in any way and I suppose that not all recording engineers have not only the knowledge level but skills like SL.

Tape decks ( any ) is always a limitation in the recording process. I own all the D2D SL and own too the samples made it from the tape deck/master tapes and even that are very good can’t compare in any way to its " brother " D2D sample.

As I posted in the thread there are many limitations in the overall recording process, the tape deck is one of those limitations.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

And I think the Sheffields D2D are about as overrated a label as they come. Sheffields have some real significant sonic issues. CC or M&K D2D leave the Sheffields in the dust. Perhaps the best sounding D2D released is George Cardas’ Kip Dobler recording. I also have some never released Ken Kreisel M&K LPs pre-D2D that would blow your mind.

Also pray tell what tape deck you used in your system and what 15 ips tapes you used in your comparison? There’s a big difference between theory and reality.

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rauliruegas
13,084 posts
 
Dear miles_b_astor: There is nothing perfect in audio and D2D recordings certainly are not perfect.

Now, you said:

"""  I think the Sheffields D2D are about as overrated a label as they come. Sheffields have some real significant sonic issues. """

as mine that's your opinion that I don't agree on that: " overrated ". I want to ask: against what?

In the other side I would like to know ( I love to learn each day. ) and be appreciated that you can tell us what:

""  some real significant sonic issues ""

are those with examples of 3-4 tracks and in which SL LP's?

Could be that I'm missing something and the only way to learn is try to listen through those example explanations.

Btw, I own too all the M&K realeased recordings.

I will wait for you to listen again my SL copies.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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rauliruegas
13,084 posts
 
Dear myles_b_astor: I still waiting for you and perhaps not only me but several other gentlemans.

I don't know but seems to me that you just talk with out real foundation and in reality you have nothing on hand on those great SL D2D LPs. Yes, I can be wrong but you need to show it.

Btw, I own some CC recordings an unfortunately no single of my samples are good to deserv a mention.

Anyway, I think is better that I use my time to listen my SL recordings.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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