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Thinking of moving from AVR to pre/pro and amp

Disclaimer: I don't know what I don't know. I do not have any major complaints with my current system which I will detail later, but I do know it doesn't sound as close to "live" performances as I'd like. Having read many threads, I believe that moving to separates will help in this area, but I may not have the best reading comprehension. I need your expertise.

My system is used 90/10 TV or DVD/Music, so that's another issue. However, when we play music we tend to really play music. We had the Wadia ipod transport running 12 hours/day over the time between Christmas and New Years, so there are long stretches of listening opportunties. I ran a great number of CDs through my Oppo 95 during this stretch too. Last year I only ran CDs as I didn't have the Wadia (I use Apple Lossless files in the ipod).

There is no option to have a separate music only room or second system no matter how much I'd like to. I have spousal asthetic and ease of use issues to contend with so therefore, whatever I buy must be black and work with my Harmony 1000 touch screen remote.

My upgrade budget is miniscule, <$2k. Used equipment is fine. No HDMI switching is fine as I already am dealing with that now.

My current system is a Rotel RSX 1056 receiver, Oppo 95 running analog 5.1 to the Rotel for audio and video via HDMI to the Sony Bravia XBR IV LCD TV. DirecTV DVR runs digital audio to the Rotel and video via HDMI to the Sony. Oppo 95 plays the CDs through the 5.1 analog cables, though in stereo mode. I use a Wadia transport to run analog into the CD input of the Rotel.

Speakers are B&W LCR6 S2's up front and B&W in ceiling surrounds out back. Two Velodyne SPL10 subs handle the lower frequencies (iirc, I cross over at 100 hz).

I currently can locally get a consignment sale 1-owner Arcam AVP700/P1000 setup for what seems to be a reasonable price ($1350 firm), or I could get a new Emotiva setup with their pre/pro and the 200wpc 5-channel amp for my <$2k budget (albeit not the newest pre/pro with balanced outputs as it isn't out yet and it would stretch the budget too far anyway).

The Arcam P1000 has an advantage in that I can use the extra 2 channels for my patio speakers and sell my ancient SAE 50wpc amp as there seems to be a demand for these on ebay (or there used to be). Not a deal maker, but a plus. Emotiva stuff comes with a warranty and a 30 day trial period, which could be a huge plus. Buying black end plates for the Emotiva is a minus, but not a deal breaker.

I like the warm sound of the B&W/Rotel combo, but it lacks *something* that I can not put words to. I'm hoping moving to more power and a better processor will open this up a bit. For instance, on my current system solo piano music sounds nice, but I just do not *feel* it like I do when someone plays a nice piano live. Same with vocals, they are just not there for me through this system. Norah Jones 'come away with me' is a bit thinner sounding than I'd like is an example that comes to mind.

Damn the new performing arts center and its excellent acoustics! I used to be more ok with the sound that I have. However, after a season seeing a bunch of live shows including performers like Botti and also The Tenors, I find it wanting (sub-note/humble brag: if you saw the Tenors lead with your heart PBS special over the holidays, you saw my wife and I in the crowd shots more than once). I also listen to Rush, Steely Dan, and even (please don't laugh) Jim Brickman. Eclectic tastes.

My room probably does not help at all with 12' ceilings, big open spaces, tile floors with one 12x12 area rug and leather furniture. Additional room treatments outside of possibly an area rug under the dining room table at the far end of the room are unlikely. See wife comment above.

Is it worth dropping money on either the Arcam or Emotiva setup?

Speaker changes are unlikely unless they would match the width of the LCR 6's for the front L&R. Center channel space is limited by the HDTV stand.

The Emotiva would allow me to run HDMI and clean up my cable runs a bit, though I do like the processing the OPPO does (over my last Blu Ray player).

Maybe I should just pay for better seats at the performing arts center?

Thanks for reading all this and I appreciate your help.
admranger
internetmin
258 posts
 
Audio in a room can be complicated if you are trying to identify a certain something and debugging it takes time and a methodological approach. There are really no short cuts. Here is what i would do in your situation:

1) I'd use only a single subwoofer for now. If you haven't calibrated each sub and dealt with phase, etc. then disconnect one sub to make your debugging easier.

2) Absolutely deal with placement and focus on that. Start with the cutover of the sub(s) to be 80hz. That's a standard. You may not end up there, but start there for debugging purposes.

3) How close are your speakers to the back wall? How close to the side walls? Are you speakers PERFECTLY symmetrical with the listening position? Did you use a laser meter or a string to make sure you have both angle and distance correct?

4) Ideally, you want a few feet from the back wall and then again a few feet from the side wall. You can start with the rule of 1/3. Measure the width of the room and then place the first speaker 1/3 of the way so that you can minimize room modes and resonances. Then place the second speaker another 1/3 or 2/3 etc. \

5) You should play with your sub placement using the standard method--crawl method is simplest. Just know that with two subs, a simple rule of thumb is both along front wall between L&R speakers or to have them in the middle of opposing walls.

If I can please give you some advice to keep you sane: don't look to replace any equipment or upgrade any speakers. I have a very strong feeling you have setup and placement issues. Until you address those you have no real idea of strengths and weaknesses of the system. Upgrading equipment right now will NOT solve your problems--it will only frustrate you and cost you $$$. Remember, bad speaker placement will always make you feel like something is wanting or missing.

You really do have good speakers and good gear so you should be getting satisfying music out of the deal.
admranger OP
144 posts
 
Ok, measured the room and the overall dimensions are 34'x34'x12'high. There is a full wall 15' back from the RF speaker that is 8' long (kitchen divide -- holds double ovens, cabinets, etc., etc.) but otherwise unbroken. Big volume to fill. However, the system sits to the very left of the room with only about 6' from the left wall when you fact the system. It's a big open area but the 'great room' is the left 2/3rds of the space. I can send pics to whoever wants to post an email address...

The media niche is a hole in the wall that is elevated 16" off the floor. It is 84" wide, 28" deep, and 66" high. Not ideal which will be reflected when I answer Internetmin's questions below... Excuse the noob responses.

1) As it turns out, I just realized that I'm not running any sub at all in 2-channel mode. Doh! One variable eliminated... I'll have to look at the Oppo's settings tomorrow and see what I've done here.

2) Will do. 80 hz it is as a starting point.

3) The speakers are 17" away from the back wall. That's as far out as I can get them. They are 6" away from the side wall, but the front of the speakers is in front of that side wall (by about 2" or so). The killer is the LF has a fireplace wall coming at a 135 angle towards the listening area so it has about 9" before it hits a nice hard tile surface.

You'll all love this as I've been told; "What you have done is wrong.": My LCR's sit directly on top of the Velodynes. Seemed like a great idea at the time and made a nice symmetrical looking set of speakers. There's a slim chance I could mount the subs elsewhere in the room, probably both to the RF and either stack them or have them side by side at floor level. Alternately I could cut some holes in the 16" raised area and put them facing out, though I'd have to cover said holes with some fabric that matches the wall paint...that could be tricky.

I have the speakers toed in, but it is by eye. I sit 15' back from the speakers. The tweeter in the LCRs (L&R) is 40" off the ground, very close to the height of my ears as I sit in my listening position.

4) My media niche dictates speaker placement quite a bit as you've read. The L&R speakers are 56" apart from the inside of each box as measured at the toed in front. I can move them wider apart, but the wall comes into play then. I really can't move them too much closer as the HDTV gets in the way, and I have a larger one in my future when the super bowl sales hit shortly...

5) I'll have to google those sub placement methods. Hopefully one corresponds to moving them both to an acceptable location given WAF issues. If I move them both to the right I can kinda/sorta have them hidden by a fabric covered chair and out of the way. That's a good thing, WAF-wise.

Thanks for the help. You've given me a lot to think about and try.

FWIW, I was just listening to Brickman's live "My Romance" CD. Track 13, "By Heart" sung by Anne Cochran is a favorite of my wife's, so I use it as a reference when I test things out. I'm going to put in Norah Jone's CD for another test. The OPPO really makes things come alive but I'm still wanting more. Hopefully some simple placement tricks will help.

However, I did stumble across some Aerial Acoustic 7B's that are in my price point and match the decor. I may even be able to audition them if things don't work out with placement tricks. Not sure they'll be matched to my center channel, but they sure get good reviews...
admranger OP
144 posts
 
BTW: Thanks for your patience with me. I do appreciate that you could be listening to music instead of replying to my thread. Rest assured, I am listening to what you are trying to tell me and I will give things a try. Thanks again!
internetmin
258 posts
 
Lots to digest in what you wrote. But also lots of information. I'll try and give you some additional thoughts later, but not having the subs turned on is likely 50% or more of your issue in 2-channel--especially if you were crossing over at 100hz!!

Your room is also huge. I mean huge. Much larger than my space and I now have full range speakers.

If you can fool around with the speaker placement--getting those speakers to ear level and off from the subwoofers--I think the sonic difference you will soon experience will be nothing short of remarkable.

It's becoming clearer why you were dissatisfied (and rightfully so) but the good news is you likely may not need to invest in any new equipment to get extreme satisfaction with what you have.
admranger OP
144 posts
 
I fixed the crossover issue, now setting it at 60 db (on the receiver, dvd player, and on the back of the subs themselves). Is 60hz too low? I can easily set it to 80hz.

I also worked a bit on speaker placement. This has helped a bit. I need to do more listening.

Getting the speakers off the subs will take some time as I need to find stands that will work. Maybe I'll just build them out of some sign board I have (leftover from a garage cabinet build this past summer), fill them with sand, and cover them with some dense fabric or acoustic foam and fabric. Goodness knows I could use some softer materials in the listening area.

I thought the room size would cause a few jaw drops. It's an odd layout, but we like the openess of the house. I give credit to Rotel and B&W (and velodyne) as my system doesn't suck in this sizeable space. However, like many of us, I'm looking for more.

When you say "get the speakers to ear level", I'm a bit confused. The LCRs have a driver on each side of the center mounted tweeter (one above the tweeter, one below it for the L&R F channels, one on either side for the C channel as that speaker has to lay on the long side on the shelf directly under the HDTV). The tweeters are currently almost exactly at my ear level when I'm listening. Where should they be? Maybe the description in my previous post was confusing.
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