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Subwoofer

A couple of days ago I was talking to a dealer and he said that all speakers benefit from adding a subwoofer. What's are your thoughts? 
ricred1
emailists
923 posts
 
First off I am a dealer for Velodyne, so there’s that. I have a pair of the DD10+ (on sustrum stands about 20" off the floor which I felt helped articulation,) complementing Tad CR1’s.  I run the TAD’s full range and the subs of the amps, which I think is preferable (at least with my BHK 300’S)
One of things no one seems to mention is that bass levels in mixing are rarely consistent.
Add that to the loudness curve based on playback levels.
So an added benefit it using the subs as a tone control. (of course an expensive one, and a feature most of us don’t have in our preamps)
I have the remote buttons on the velodyne set up with 5 different slopes so it’s easy to fill in recordings with weak bass, or for late night listening. Even sub optimal live concert streaming like grateful Dead ex member shows from the Capital theater in Port chester NY or live jazz from Smalls and mezzrow here in nyc are enhanced with a sub. It’s kinda fun to expand the bass from these Web streams and hear the 7th Avenue subway go by, just as when I’m actually in Smalls jazz venue.
On proper studio recordings, When I mute the subs and listen, I feel like it sounds a bit like truly excellent hi fi. Adding the subs back In - even though they are coming in only below 40hz, sounds like musicians in the room. It subtlely fills out voice and other instruments higher up in a way that seems counterintuitive.
I guess I’m a tweeker, but I really enjoy taking a few seconds per track or per album, and optimizing the bass level and sometimes slope to get the most realistic feel for the moment. This is probably in stark contrast to most, who get a reference or flat response and wouldn’t dream of altering it to taste.
I have never compared other subs in my space so I can’t comment - but of course I’d love to hear JL’s latest just for comparison.


rwwear
2,873 posts
 
Some good points emailists. I was a Velodyne dealer a few years back. Still great I think.
wolf_garcia
6,719 posts
 
Bo1972 has resurfaced! YAY! However, he continues to be utterly wrong when claiming "slow" response is something that has anything to do with cone material, or actually exists in reality as he describes it (bass frequencies are a specific animal in any acoustic space and catch phrases like "slow" are somewhat useless), and clearly has a very limited understanding of how any of this works…A statement like "Even with a 4000 watt amp, a paper driver is still slow in response. Doesn’t make sense. " is likely true in his brain as he lacks the sophistication to make sense of this while burdened with preconceived notions based on his alleged "proof." Note that he’s stated that he uses subs crossed over at around 150hz which is well into low midrange territory, and anybody who tests the efficacy of that setup would notice it sounds like crap without copious amounts of some sort of (otherwise unnecessary) EQ. Bo has shown he knows very little about actual music (I think he heard a live concert somewhere once), promotes an imagined pseudo expertise with long winded proclamations based on nonsense, and his re-emergence gives me something to happily rail at…welcome back Bo.
bo1972's avatar
bo1972
2,789 posts
 
I auditioned the DD18 a few years ago. The thing I liked was the integration in the room without any acoustic problems.

But the instruments and voices became less focussed and bigger in proportion. We switched between on and off. That is why you need a room acoustic system what measures both speakers and subwoofer togheter. And not separated.

Audio is testing and comparing. I started to test in 1998 to know all the different properties of each part of an audio set.

Today a client of mine phoned me. He auditioned a surroundset with the new Platinum series II from Monitor Audio.

This set was with the Pl-300, Pl-100, PL-centre and PLW215 subwoofer. Also here the subwoofer was measurend with the room calibration system of the subwoofer. They were not able to let the subwoofer play above 40hz.  Because the control was gone.

These days all subwoofer go till 120hz. The only reason I am able  to  create this is because I can measure the subwoofer very accurate. They become one with the speakers. This is a huge advantage. Using lasers makes it even more precise.

This is amature level in audio,  and this is common these days. Beside this it does not integrate like Stealth Low Frequency. 

Velodyne needs a better response. Last year a client of mine visit me. He also owns the DD18. I told him what Stealth low frequency means and does.

After the demo his words were: This is the level of integration what I would wish. This is a different level compared to my Velodyne. He understood that the difference in timing and speed  is huge.

I use shootouts and testing to find the best products and create the best sound possible. Audio is understanding music and second you need to find out which properties each part owns.
audiokinesis
2,747 posts
 

bo1972, there is nothing wrong with making experimental observations as you do, but in my opinion one critical element seems to be lacking: A strong background in acoustics and psychoacoustics.

The human mind loves to have explanations for what it observes in the world around it. If we do not have enough correct information in our mental database, we will manufacture explanations using what limited information we do have. So we may conclude that this subwoofer sounds faster than that one because of cone material or woofer diameter, and once this has become one of our core beliefs, our mind selectively interprets our experiences to preserve and reinforce that belief. We confuse correlation with causation and come up with erroneous "laws".  And we humans do not like to have our beliefs challenged because we identify with them. We love to "be right" and we hate to "be wrong" (see, even the wording equates our self with our belief, which is a mistake). Our highest allegiance should always be to the truth, not to a favorite theory.

In my opinion it is the responsibility of those of us who claim to be professionals in this field to acquire a professional level of expertise. That doesn’t necessarily mean we need a college degree in the subject, but it does mean that we should at least read and study for our niche as much as a serious college student would.

I suggest starting out with Dr. Floyd Toole’s "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms", which has chapters devoted to the stuff this thread is about. Don’t stop there, but at least start there, and then look in the bibliography for further reading in areas of interest. I also recommend Geddes, Everest, and Blauert.

The advantage of going to so much effort is this: Now when we make an observation, our minds will be able to draw from valid scientific theories and explanations stored in our mental database, instead of having to manufacture its own explanation from very limited information.

Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.

Duke

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