Is my amp the problem?


I recently decided to bi-amp my speakers so I purchased a crown xls 1002. (225w 8 ohm). I am driving a 10 woofer. It sounds horrible. I can't seem to get it to put out much power despite its rating even when I make all the right adjustments. Its a class D amp. Is that my problem? It just doesn't seem to have any Ba**s. Lol. Advice is appreciated.
jimbones

Agreed, if you are using active crossover, especially with two different types of amps, you really need to get actual speaker response measurements. This does become more difficult in your own home, unless you build some sort of sound absorbing tunnel (or do something outside aiming the speaker up with an infinite baffle type of area. You’ll need some sort of gain adjustment if you use different amps, or you will have to put in some sort of level adjustment in the passive crossover.  Generally, people who bi-amp will use the exact same amp for highs/lows, but it may be a waste of expense to buy a second Modwright amp. I guess the pro audio amps are good because they do come with a gain adjustment.

You could change to a QSC amp if you wanted to if you look for a Class A/AB.  Pro audio amplifiers are designed to work in extreme environments, push a lot of -general- power to speakers that are extremely efficient (i.e. 98db/watt) and be as efficient with the A/C power as possible. Hence, more Class D/H/I style amps with switching power supplies and fans.  What you want is more of a linear power supply with huge amounts of power supply capacitance and lots of output transistor devices. Usually, this does mean looking for an amp that has a lot more watts (since you need that bigger power supply to be able to push the watts), but it does not mean you have to use all the power. It just means that you have enough brute force from the power supply to drive speakers with low or radical impedance curves.

I have used a Crown CTS600 and a Crown CTS2000. The CTS 600 was a Class AB amp. The sound quality was okay, but somewhat dry. The CTS2000 was definitely stronger and better for woofers, but it was a Class I (Class D variation) and it definitely had some tube-like overtones/colorations in the sound. The Emotiva XPA-1 monoblock was significantly better than either of these Crown amps. Emotiva was totally stronger than either and just sounded better overall. Much more current on tap.

As far as I remember, a Zobel will not change the basic impedance of the speaker. It will still be 4 ohms. A Zobel is to control the rising impedence as the woofer tracks towards the higher frequencies. It’s good to put in a Zobel for the woofer anyways. See this:

https://trueaudio.com/st_zobel.htm

The Modwright is an excellent amp. My suggestions of the Emotiva XPA-1/1L and the Parasound A21 was to try to get a good enough amp to match the resolution/fidelity of the Modwright for the lower woofer registers. You don’t have to spend as much if you don’t want to. You could even go with a single Emotiva XPA-2 (2 channel), or other alternative. In the end, you get what you pay for. Actually, the Parasound A21 has a gain adjustment on the back, so it may work well unless the internal gain of the Modwright is so much higher.

OK. The 2x4HD has a rated maximum output of 2 volts, which should be fine relative to the 0.775 volt sensitivity the Crown is set for.

However the 2x4HD’s input impedance of 10K is still fairly low. And if I’m correct in understanding that you have been connecting the LS100 to both the miniDSP and the Modwright amp, the LS100’s output stage is most likely seeing the combined parallel impedances of the miniDSP (10K) and the Modwright amp (23K). That combined impedance would be (23K x 10K)/(23K + 10K) = 6.97K, which again could very well be too low for the LS100 to drive without significant rolloff in the deep bass region. And with adverse effects perhaps resulting at higher frequencies as well, that are handled by the Modwright amp and the mid/hi drivers.

That would most likely be the case regardless of whether you have been using the LS100’s XLR output or its second RCA output to drive the Modwright amp, because its XLR output is described as being driven with a single-ended signal. Which I would feel very confident means that the same output stage (and output coupling capacitor) is driving both of the RCA connectors AND the XLR connector.

So that’s one more reason why eliminating the mini may very well be helpful.

Regarding your question about a Zobel network, as Auxinput indicated I believe what that would make possible is just a reduction or elimination of the impedance rise of the woofer that occurs at midrange and treble frequencies, as a result of its inductance. I don’t think, though, that a Zobel would allow you to reduce the relatively narrow impedance peak I referred to that occurs in the vicinity of 30 Hz. But that peak may very well not be an issue anyway, its only significance perhaps being that the maximum power capability of the amp at frequencies in that vicinity would be a good deal less than its 8 ohm rating.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

Taking almarg’s comments...

Emotiva XPA-1 unbalanced input impedance: 23.5k ohms -- means (23k x 23.5k) / (23k + 23.5k) = 11.6k ohms combined.

Parasound A21 unbalanced input impedance: 33k ohms -- means (23k x 33k) / (23k + 33k) = 13.5k ohms combined.

So, comparitively speaking, the increase of impedance when using these amps directly instead of using the miniDSP for low-end will significantely improve the impedance load on the Modwright preamp. That and the fact that these amps are just stronger in controlling the woofer in general would lead me to think that it’s better just to drop the miniDSP out of the mix. I would just use the passive crossovers in the speakers unless you wanted to use something like the Bryston 10B to do BOTH the high and low amplifiers.

Actually, looking at the Crown XLS 1002, it has a built-in low pass crossover as part of its DSP.  You can setup a Linkwitz-Riley 24dB/octave low-pass crossover point anywhere from 30 Hz and 3,000 Hz.  See page 8-9 of the manual.  It does not publish the input impedance, but it -might- be better than using the miniDSP.

http://rdn.harmanpro.com/product_documents/documents/2554_1431029566/5055568_XLSDC2_MNL_PRINT_050615_original.pdf

Good comments by Auxinput.  I just noticed something further about the Modwright amp.  I had stated its input impedance as being 23K, because the impedance is indicated on its webpage as "Min. 15K 50Khz; 23K 1Khz," and I considered the 50 kHz impedance to be irrelevant.  Although I wondered a little why he would bother specifying a 50 kHz impedance.  However I now see that its manual (in contrast to the webpage) indicates an input impedance of "Min. 15K at 50Hz [not kHz]; 23K at 1Khz."

So that makes it all the more important to avoid requiring the LS100 to drive a low input impedance device in addition to the Modwright amp.  My suggestion at this point is that you communicate with Dan and ask him what minimum load impedance he would recommend be used with the LS100.  While you're at it, also ask him to clarify if the amp's specified input impedance applies to its balanced input or its unbalanced input or both.

Regards,
-- Al