Dave,
You stated:" Nice to know Tim. Nothing like being set up by someone with an agenda to push posing as a real person. Shoulda known."
My wife has often accused me of 'posing as a real person' but I didn't expect this from you!
I'm such a big fan of DBAS that I've probably seemed a bit too enthusiastic to some readers. I actually can understand how some may question my agenda. My only 'agenda' is spreading the word on DBAS due to its extraordinary effectiveness in generating great bass performance in any room due to its ability to eliminate bass standing waves without the need for ANY of the usual expensive but comparatively ineffective tools such as bass traps, room analyzing microphones, room analyzing software, bass compensating software or bass compensating equalization.
However, I can assure you I have absolutely no financial association in the manufacture or sales of distributed bass array systems. After many phone calls and emails communicating with James Romeyn, the owner of James Romeyn- Music and Audio LLC in Utah where I purchased my DEBRA DBAS, I do consider him a friend but there are absolutely no business agreements or arrangements between us.
Dave, you stated: " I only listen from one position as I am only one person at any given point in time. As for having four subs, I am probably already in the extreme at having two. I am sure there are a few audiophiles that are able to overcome the expense and freedom from real-life constraints (WAF and such) that can or will take advantage of your recommendations. Bet you can count them on your fingers. You can stop trying to solve the issue for the OP as he went a different direction. One more finger in reserve..".
I understand the OP decided to use 2 JL F112-V2 subs in his system. For current and future readers of this thread, however, I'm going to list the main reasons I believe this was not a good choice for many who are considering the best choice for low bass performance in their rooms and also to refute some of your comments in your quote above.:
1. PERFORMANCE-
I know the JL F112-V2 are very good subs. My issue is not with the quality of the subs the OP chose but the quantity of subs and their positioning. As I've stated multiple times on this thread, it has been scientifically proven that 4 subs setup in the distributed bass array system method is the best solution discovered thus far at eliminating bass standing waves in any room regardless of the room's size and dimensions. This results in very good bass response that is accurate, smooth, extended and these qualities are consistent throughout the entire room.
The JL F112-V2 manual also recommends the use of 4 subs for best results. Here is the exact quote:
" Research indicates that the smoothest bass response for a large listening area can be achieved using four subwoofers, placing one at the midpoint of each of the four walls (although using two or three subwoofers can be almost as good) "
This quote is accurate with the exceptions of the positioning recommendation and that 'using two or three subs can be almost as good". . The JL positioning method is rather rigid and may not work in every room. The distributed bass array method is much more specific and is customized to each room.
I am not aware of any scientific proof that two or three subs perform almost as well as 4 subs at reducing bass standing waves. I'm not stating this statement is false, just that I'm currently unaware of any scientific verification.of this statement.
To be fair and honest, I think 4 JL F112-V2 subs would likely outperform 4 Audio Kinesis subs (probably in deeper bass extension) if both were positioned using the same distributed bass array method.
However, using just 2 JL F112-V2 subs could possibly sound good at 1 listening position if both subs are positioned using the distributed bass array system procedure with the listening position treated as the reference position But this will also unavoidably result in multiple bass standing waves at numerous other spots in the room that will cause bass perception at these positions to be exaggerated(peaks), diminished (dips or nulls)or even non-existent(cancellations). Not a problem in your situation but is much more important to many others.
2. WAF-
We all know this is variable by user dependent on the quality and nature of your 'W'. My opinion is that most wives would be more amenable to the look, size and discreetness of the Audio Kinesis subs than the JL subs. Here are some facts and I'll let each reader decide based on their own W's likely reaction:
Each JL F112-V2 weighs 117 lbs. and is 15.1"W x18.5"H x17.8"D
Each Audio Kenisis weighs 67 lbs.and is 14.5"W x 23.75"H x 10.375"D
JL F112-V2, I believe, is only available in black gloss finish
Audio Kinesis subs are available in a wide variety of wood finishes
My opinion is that the Audio Kinesis subs, being smaller and available in numerous wood finishes, would be considered by most wives to be more discreet than the larger and gloss black JL subs
After following the progressive setup procedure, my front 2 subs sounded best located along the front 16' wide wall of my 23' long by 16' wide living room. Each front sub is located about 1' away from each side wall, hidden from view by a 6' high by 2' wide Magnepan panel speaker that is positioned about 3' in front of each sub and also 1' away from each side wall. From my listening chair located in the middle of the back 16' short wall opposite the front, both front subs are completely hidden from view.
Sub#3 sounded best along the 23' long left wall about 1' away from the back wall. Sub#4 sounded best along the right 23' wall about 1' away from the back wall. Sub#3 is hidden from view by a large leather recliner and sub#4 is hidden from view by a large wooden end table that is between sub#4 and my listening chair. Overall, the 4 subs do not call attention to themselves and, therefore, very discreet.
.
3. PRICE/VALUE-
.
The complete Audio Kinesis DEBRA system(:4 subs and a 950W amp) is priced at $2,990.
The mrsp of 4 JL F112-V2 subs(optimal performance according to JL) is $14,800, although a buyer buying 4 would likely to get a significantly reduced price of I would estimate at about $12,000. The OP would be very fortunate to have struck a deal for 2 JL F112-V2 subs for twice the price of the Audio Kinesis system. Clearly, using 2-4 of the JL subs is significantly more expensive. than the Audio Kineses complete system.
I would think more than a handful of audiophiles would be interested in a bass system solution that outperforms 2 high quality subs, has a higher WAF and costs thousands less.
" One more finger in reserve.."?
Later,
Tim
.
.
You stated:" Nice to know Tim. Nothing like being set up by someone with an agenda to push posing as a real person. Shoulda known."
My wife has often accused me of 'posing as a real person' but I didn't expect this from you!
I'm such a big fan of DBAS that I've probably seemed a bit too enthusiastic to some readers. I actually can understand how some may question my agenda. My only 'agenda' is spreading the word on DBAS due to its extraordinary effectiveness in generating great bass performance in any room due to its ability to eliminate bass standing waves without the need for ANY of the usual expensive but comparatively ineffective tools such as bass traps, room analyzing microphones, room analyzing software, bass compensating software or bass compensating equalization.
However, I can assure you I have absolutely no financial association in the manufacture or sales of distributed bass array systems. After many phone calls and emails communicating with James Romeyn, the owner of James Romeyn- Music and Audio LLC in Utah where I purchased my DEBRA DBAS, I do consider him a friend but there are absolutely no business agreements or arrangements between us.
Dave, you stated: " I only listen from one position as I am only one person at any given point in time. As for having four subs, I am probably already in the extreme at having two. I am sure there are a few audiophiles that are able to overcome the expense and freedom from real-life constraints (WAF and such) that can or will take advantage of your recommendations. Bet you can count them on your fingers. You can stop trying to solve the issue for the OP as he went a different direction. One more finger in reserve..".
I understand the OP decided to use 2 JL F112-V2 subs in his system. For current and future readers of this thread, however, I'm going to list the main reasons I believe this was not a good choice for many who are considering the best choice for low bass performance in their rooms and also to refute some of your comments in your quote above.:
1. PERFORMANCE-
I know the JL F112-V2 are very good subs. My issue is not with the quality of the subs the OP chose but the quantity of subs and their positioning. As I've stated multiple times on this thread, it has been scientifically proven that 4 subs setup in the distributed bass array system method is the best solution discovered thus far at eliminating bass standing waves in any room regardless of the room's size and dimensions. This results in very good bass response that is accurate, smooth, extended and these qualities are consistent throughout the entire room.
The JL F112-V2 manual also recommends the use of 4 subs for best results. Here is the exact quote:
" Research indicates that the smoothest bass response for a large listening area can be achieved using four subwoofers, placing one at the midpoint of each of the four walls (although using two or three subwoofers can be almost as good) "
This quote is accurate with the exceptions of the positioning recommendation and that 'using two or three subs can be almost as good". . The JL positioning method is rather rigid and may not work in every room. The distributed bass array method is much more specific and is customized to each room.
I am not aware of any scientific proof that two or three subs perform almost as well as 4 subs at reducing bass standing waves. I'm not stating this statement is false, just that I'm currently unaware of any scientific verification.of this statement.
To be fair and honest, I think 4 JL F112-V2 subs would likely outperform 4 Audio Kinesis subs (probably in deeper bass extension) if both were positioned using the same distributed bass array method.
However, using just 2 JL F112-V2 subs could possibly sound good at 1 listening position if both subs are positioned using the distributed bass array system procedure with the listening position treated as the reference position But this will also unavoidably result in multiple bass standing waves at numerous other spots in the room that will cause bass perception at these positions to be exaggerated(peaks), diminished (dips or nulls)or even non-existent(cancellations). Not a problem in your situation but is much more important to many others.
2. WAF-
We all know this is variable by user dependent on the quality and nature of your 'W'. My opinion is that most wives would be more amenable to the look, size and discreetness of the Audio Kinesis subs than the JL subs. Here are some facts and I'll let each reader decide based on their own W's likely reaction:
Each JL F112-V2 weighs 117 lbs. and is 15.1"W x18.5"H x17.8"D
Each Audio Kenisis weighs 67 lbs.and is 14.5"W x 23.75"H x 10.375"D
JL F112-V2, I believe, is only available in black gloss finish
Audio Kinesis subs are available in a wide variety of wood finishes
My opinion is that the Audio Kinesis subs, being smaller and available in numerous wood finishes, would be considered by most wives to be more discreet than the larger and gloss black JL subs
After following the progressive setup procedure, my front 2 subs sounded best located along the front 16' wide wall of my 23' long by 16' wide living room. Each front sub is located about 1' away from each side wall, hidden from view by a 6' high by 2' wide Magnepan panel speaker that is positioned about 3' in front of each sub and also 1' away from each side wall. From my listening chair located in the middle of the back 16' short wall opposite the front, both front subs are completely hidden from view.
Sub#3 sounded best along the 23' long left wall about 1' away from the back wall. Sub#4 sounded best along the right 23' wall about 1' away from the back wall. Sub#3 is hidden from view by a large leather recliner and sub#4 is hidden from view by a large wooden end table that is between sub#4 and my listening chair. Overall, the 4 subs do not call attention to themselves and, therefore, very discreet.
.
3. PRICE/VALUE-
.
The complete Audio Kinesis DEBRA system(:4 subs and a 950W amp) is priced at $2,990.
The mrsp of 4 JL F112-V2 subs(optimal performance according to JL) is $14,800, although a buyer buying 4 would likely to get a significantly reduced price of I would estimate at about $12,000. The OP would be very fortunate to have struck a deal for 2 JL F112-V2 subs for twice the price of the Audio Kinesis system. Clearly, using 2-4 of the JL subs is significantly more expensive. than the Audio Kineses complete system.
I would think more than a handful of audiophiles would be interested in a bass system solution that outperforms 2 high quality subs, has a higher WAF and costs thousands less.
" One more finger in reserve.."?
Later,
Tim
.
.