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Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.

Here is how I found out.

After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.

It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.

I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!

SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
sautan904
shadorne's avatar
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shadorne
7,477 posts
 
I don’t discount Doug’s findings but the whole concept of cables or interconnects being used to affect sound is wrong. Properly designed audio should minimize extraneous effects (wires between components).

Amplifier manufacturers can design amps to high tolerances of THD and low Intermodulation distortion such that most amps are indistinguishable in ABX testing DESPITE being made from different wires and of different lengths and often slightly different topologies.

Given what amplifiers can do it is logical that ordinary bits of wire can and SHOULD do even better in being transparent to the source signal.

My conclusion is that audiophile wires are being deliberately designed and fabricated to act as an equalizer or filter!!! If they were designed to be transparent to tight tolerances like amps then they too would be indistinguishable. After all we put a man on he moon and none of this is rocket science.

So I don’t refute the result. However that audiophiles are using audio cable filters to modify sound is totally ridiculous in my view. I would recommend buying better equipment in the first place - equipment that sounds good without audio filtering - rather than trying to band aid bad sound with additional filtering. If your equipment is well chosen and well matched then it will sound great WITHOUT filtering.
douglas_schroeder
3,281 posts
 

dynaquest, it's Soo's livelihood, but it's not mine. I don't get paid to write my reviews. I am fully aware that it is counter-productive to do so, but I also do not wish to be encumbered by the politics of the industry.

I do not subscribe to the importance of break in of cables. I'm not impressed by a method that purportedly yields significant changes when you can do so immediately by swapping cables. That is not readily apparent until you actually DO comparisons. So, you can take me off your reviewers to condemn list in those regards. :)

Shadorne: you commented, "I don’t discount Doug’s findings but the whole concept of cables or interconnects being used to affect sound is wrong. Properly designed audio should minimize extraneous effects (wires between components)."  I ask, says who? Please quote the authorities who have proven that cables are not to be used as tone controls (and imo much more). Last time I checked systems can have any element altered to improve performance. Since when are cables off the table in terms of an element of a system to manipulate to improve performance? Due to theory? That's wonderful, but in actuality, in the real world they are highly effective.

Your argument regarding Amplifiers and different internal wiring, topologies etc. is invalid. You concluded, "Given what amplifiers can do it is logical that ordinary bits of wire can and SHOULD do even better in being transparent to the source signal." Note that all other components in the Van Alstine ABX Comparator review, though differing in schematics and construction, were easily discerned. Amps are unique in this way, and they do not hold that property in the real world as there is no practical way to level match them from system to system.

Regarding your assertion that one should seek better quality gear; How good of equipment do you think you would need to overcome the supposed build quality issue you present? Perhaps$24K in Pass Labs monoblocks, maybe about $35K of VAC pre/amps, Simaudio, SST, Van Alstine, Music First, Wells Audio, Empirical Audio, Coda Technologies, Ayon Audio, Moscode, Jones Audio, Einstein, Pathos, etc.? I have reviewed these all, and ALL of these are sensitive to cables of all sorts. I have never encountered ANY audiophile gear that was insensitive to the use of cables, thankfully! If any gear was I wouldn't want to use it, as it would be garbage. I have had conversations online with Nelson Pass and other designers about such things. It's quite fun, actually!

You guys simply do not believe it. So be it. I'm not going to debate it forever. :)

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shadorne
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Douglas,

I don’t need to quote authority. The whole basis for design of equipment is to reproduce the source signal accurately. A filter is designed to modify the signal and runs entirely counter to the purist approach - it is a band aid best used sparingly and best avoided if at all possible (if you want to hear what is on the recording that is). If filtering is needed then there are Equalizers or tone controls dedicated to that - these are much more flexible in that they can be adjusted to suit a variety of situations or needs.

Guess what - in pro audio for live music events they use EQ and other active filters to control the sound to get the best sound for the venue. I have NEVER seen a pro audio sound engineer run around with dozens of different sounding speaker cables and interconnects and then seen the engineer change them on the fly to get the desired sound at a particular venue during the tour. It is just plain Ludicrous. Horses for courses. Cables are supposed to make connections as transparently as possible. Guitarists will use different pedals or stomp boxes and different guitars - they don’t travel with a panoply of different sounding 1/4 inch cables!

If folks here can't understand or refuse to understand what is plain and simple best practices in the industry then just accept you like expensive cable filtering tweaking for fun and recognize it is a not a better or more reliable approach to the highest quality sound - just the most awkward and expensive way to modify the sound.
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almarg
9,670 posts
 
Regarding the possibility that audio components can be designed to be insensitive to cable differences, in the case of line-level analog interconnects Atmasphere has described the design criteria which would accomplish that. And he has offered what I consider to be compelling proof of his contention. See the first of his posts dated 3-22-2013 in this thread. Also see my follow-up question dated 3-27-2013, and his response thereto.

Unfortunately, though, it seems that for whatever reasons the designs of the majority of high end audio components do not meet one or more of those criteria. And my impression is that it is more common for pro audio equipment to do so, presumably in many cases as a consequence of the need for that equipment to be able to drive long cables.

And regarding sensitivity to speaker cable differences, as Ralph (Atmasphere) has said in a number of past threads that will be minimized, at least, if the speakers have high impedance and if the cable length is kept short (as would be facilitated by the use of monoblock amplifiers).

Regards,
-- Al
 
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dlcockrum
2,190 posts
 
Should we all decide, as shadorne has, to enclose our speakers in massive, flat wall cabinets, thus destroying any hope of time coherence, to use parametric equalizers to grossly alter the audio signal, and to consider electronic drums our audio reference, it is entirely possible that the deleterious effects of dielectric absorption (time smearing), capacitance/inductance/resistance and RF/EMI on the signal moving through our speaker cables would be inconsequential.

Dave
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