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Wilson Audio Sophia III Question/Help

Dear friends,

I have recently found the chance to upgrade my speakers to a pair of Wilson Audio Sophia 3's. They are driven by a McIntosh MA8000 (300w p/ch SS amp). Although the details in music, huge dynamics and being able to hear more layers into music have been a stunning experience for me with the Sophias, I am a little troubled in a very basic area of stereo image reproduction.

First, some information on the setup: The speakers are 7 feet apart and the listening position is approx 9 feet. However, due to limited space the speakers have to sit less than a foot to the back and side walls (I have installed Vicoustic Flexi wall treatments on back and side of the speakers) The speakers are on spikes and currently toed in 15 degrees. (I have experimented with 0-25 degrees toeing in). I listen to mostly Rock and Jazz music.

I feel like the center image/presence/focus/impact is not strong enough in some recordings. It feels like the vocals are too laid back when there comes a loud orchestral/dynamic passage. It just feels like I need to pay more attention to understand/decode what the vocalist is saying... In vocal-oriented music, Jazz audiophile recordings, etc, there is no such problem, yet sometimes I still feel like the vocal is not pinpoint center but a little dispersed in between the speakers. The traditional solution would be to toe in the speakers more, but then Sophias on direct axis tend to draw attention to themselves, which make the sound coming from left and right more apparent, contradicting with my purpose of strengthening the center image. It just feels like the sound is diffused - perhaps too wide soundstage than I'm accustomed to... I don't think I have trouble with boomy bass which curtain the mids by the way. I am sure the room acoustics are in play here, yet I did not have a similar experience with the B&W 804 speakers I have used in the same place before, they have had strong center fill, pinpoint phantom image in the center with a decent soundstage. I feel like the Sophias are rendering much more information from music, they offer higher resolution and transparency yet I cannot get them to sing as they are supposed to - missing some of the very basic attributes in stereo. I knew that Wilsons are picky in room setup but I have been experimenting for days and don't have an alternative space to move my hi-fi.

I'll appreciate any comments and suggestions.
Thank you.
pseudognostic
shadorne's avatar
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shadorne
7,467 posts
 
A foot from side walls is a huge problem. You really need a minimum of 3 feet! The side wall reflections tend to make the sound collapse to the speakers giving you a weaker stereo central image. Move the speakers closer together. Nothing wrong with placing the speakers 4 feet apart and sitting 9 foot back - you will be surprised at how good this sounds and you won't lose stereo image at all - just a bit narrower and it should suddenly be rock solid vocals in the centre.

As others have pointed out, the B&W tend to beam in the mid range producing a rather unnatural sound field but with the advantage that they are much less affected by side walls.
pops
2,273 posts
 
I agree with Shandorne - I would definitely try that and even sitting closer to get a near field presentation.  It will minimize room effects, especially side wall reflections.  You will be surprised how much presence you will pick up.

mgreen27
147 posts
 

"I could never put my finger on it until I had a demo with the Sophia 3, thiel 3.7 and B&W 802D all in the same room for an A/B/C demo. The Thiels had the worst case of this issue (diffused vocals) but the best lateral dispersion. The wilsons sat right in the middle of focus and dispersion and the B&W had a laser focused midrange."

I can understand your overall experience. The issue with the Thiels are the easiest to explain because they're time and phase correct. They don't give a back tilt adjustment like Vandersteen does, so the positioning has to be perfect. Your head has to be just in the right spot or you'll loose everything. It only takes a couple of inches.

I guess when I read the OP's story that the B&W's are outperforming the Wilsons, I tend to panic. I had the 804's and several other pairs. All I can say is that I've owned many different brands, but I consider myself a victim when it comes to B&W.

I believe shadorne has some good advice. We know the speakers are wired in phase so the next logical step is placement. Definitely try moving them closer together. If all of your components are well matched and of good quality, your system should have no problem imaging beyond the outside edge of the speakers. Actually, I have a pair of Wilsons myself in a 2nd system I put together. They're not as nice as the OP's, but the imaging still goes way beyond the outside edge of the speaker.

jafant's avatar
jafant
19,296 posts
 
Excellent advice by the panel. I have spent much time w/ all of the Speaker brands mentioned.  I own Thiel loudspeakers due to their natural, inherent, timbral sound and presentation.

I have owned the B&W 805- a very fine monitor, speaker. I have listened to the Wilson Audio Sophia and Sasha models w/ excellent gear from ARC, Ayre and Bryston. All of these speakers require "room" to breathe, open up and expand the imaging/soundstage.  Placement is key.

pseudognostic- your speakers are too close to the back/side walls, collapsing the sound.  Try placing a little closer together 5, then 6 ft apart for openers.  Keep me posted and Happy Listening!
gpgr4blu
1,080 posts
 
Wilson set up instructions call for you to sit a distance away equal to 1.1 to 1.25 times the distance between the tweeters so it sounds like you are close to that. Toe in should be so that you can barely see the inside of the cabinet from your listening position. The right  tweeter should be directed at the right ear and the left at the left ear . The speakers should be placed in the zone of neutrality re the wall behind and beside each speaker. I think you should experiment with toe in while moving the speakers closer together. That alone should solve your center fill problem. 15 degree toe in is definitely a problem. When you dial it in you will know it because you will get a better center fill, the speakers will disappear as source points AND you will get a wider and deeper soundstage.  In a way it's anti-intuitive, but it works.   
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