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Preamp for music and home theater for under $3500

Current system:
Audio Refinement Pre2 DSP preamp
Hafler 9300 amps in mono for each speaker (L, C, R, RR, LR)
Velodyne sub 
Oppo BDP 103

So, a little background may help for the recommendations I hope to receive. I primarily listen to music in High-Rez formats (non-downloads) like SACD, DVD-A and a few pure audio Blu-rays. I prefer, when mixed properly, to listen in surround though many of the SACD's I have are stereo only. I use the AR Pre2 DSP in "pure audio" mode meaning the digital processing is all done via the Oppo for both music and movies and goes directly through the AR unit's 5.1 inputs and outputs with no processing. I chose the Audio Refinement originally for this purpose and love the clarity it provides. However, over the years its shortcomings have become more apparent in that it has poor bass management. When listening to music in surround or movies for example the subwoofer is engaged but if I listened to an SACD or (regular redbook) CD the subwoofer is not engaged. FWIW, I have both the Oppo and the AR's low pass filter set at 70 Hz. The subwoofer is not a filter issue however as much as a signal issue in that the subwoofer only accommodates a single input so I have to use the "subwoofer out" on the preamp and therefore it only plays the dedicated subwoofer channel in the surround mix, whether movie or music. In a previous HT/music set-up years ago I had a Velodyne sub where I ran the main LR signal through the sub, using it's low pass filter, and then back to the amplifiers. This was more flexible for music as anything under 60Hz (the setting at the time) was played by the sub. However, the limitation here was I never got the "true" dedicated subwoofer channel for surround music or movies. So, with that out of the way, I am looking for a pre-amp now that will accommodate the signals from the Oppo player (and any other source, digital or analogue) and allow me to utilize the subwoofer whether from a 5.1 or stereo source. Philosophically, I have always tried to stick with preamps that were musically oriented and out of the digital realm as I want to use this for many years - my belief being that technology upgrades be contained in the player (like the Oppo or even an external DAC) and the preamp simply allow for flexibility of source inputs and outputs and be as "clean and pure" as possible. I have recently been to a few high-end audio places here in the Dallas area but it seems like all the preamps have DAC's built in (with the higher-end ones using the same chipset in the Oppo). Some accept HDMI which I suppose could clean up some of the wires and even solve the bass management issue but I am concerned the SACD signal will not "travel" this way (get converted to PCM in other words) and I have no idea about the DVD-A or Blu-Ray signal (I assume those would be OK?). Again, I don't want to buy a preamp with 24/192 DAC's and 5 years from now have some source component providing me 48/384 or some other "revolutionary" technology being down-converted. Don't get me wrong, I am fine with a preamp that has a good DAC, and in fact need the preamp to have this to convert digital signals via fiber, coax or even HDMI from sources like the satellite receiver or (if I ever purchase one) a music server, etc. it is just a requisite that the pre-amp have inputs (at least 1 set of 5.1 inputs) that are strictly analogue!  Are there any other High-Rez audiophiles out there that are feeling my pain and have some recommendations for a preamp that will allow for the various inputs AND solve the bass management issue?

whiterockman
auxinput
2,920 posts
 

First thing to know is that SACD (i.e. DSD audio bitstream) cannot be filtered. This means that you cannot apply DSP to the SACD/DSD audio such as EQ, phase, crossover, etc. Any 2-channel SACD disc is going to have to be played full range with only 2 speakers. If you do see a device that does true bass management with SACD, it is either converting the DSD to PCM so that it can apply a crossover filter, or it has a completely analog crossover (not likely). You can actually buy an analog crossover (such as the Bryston 10B) if you wanted bass management for all 2-channel music -- this would require you to disable the SUB in the Oppo speaker configuration. Otherwise, you’ll have to just live with Left/Right for SACD.

CD and other 2-channel hi-res (i.e. 24/96 or 24/192) can be filtered through a digital crossover. You might try going into your Oppo settings and configure your Left/Right speakers as "SMALL". This would force the Oppo to use subwoofer for any 2-channel music output. I would also disable any filter setting in your Pre2 preamp. You do not want a crossover filter applied on top of another crossover filter.  In your situation, it could be that the Oppo is not doing bass management for 2-channel music.

I would highly recommend NOT using your 5.1 analog preamp to do any crossover/bass management, unless you are sending a digital signal to your preamp to be processed. In my opinion, the Oppo 103 is lacking in audio quality for your system. I would maybe suggest upgrading to an Oppo 105 (or the upcoming UDP-205) to get the superior audio boards. Or look at a higher-end home theater processor.  A processor would do bass management for 2-channel audio (except for SACD/DSD).

There are two HT processors I know of that will accept SACD/DSD through HDMI. Both of these are architected to be somewhat future proof. They have already have had upgraded HDMI boards implemented to support 4K & HDCP2.2:

Emotiva XMC-1 (Dolby Atmos & DTS-X support coming soon)

Krell Foundation (superior audio, but much more expensive)

One other processor option you can look at is the Marantz AV8802A. It not really future proof, but it can play DSD from files or HDMI inputs. I would put it as much better sound quality than the Emotiva. It’s difficult to know if the Marantz is better than then Krell Foundation because the Marantz has fully discrete audio stages (HDAM). The Marantz has a whole lot more features than the Krell (internet radio, straming, Pandora, etc.)

For me, I am mostly a movie watcher, but I am very critical on 2-channel audio and love to listen to music. I went a different route and got a Krell S-1200U processor to do all my audio processing and generation. I decided that having a superior audio stage in my equipment was much better then trying to get something that supported SACD/DSD. The Krell S1200 has a much better audio stage than any of my above suggestions, but it is somewhat archaic in the HDMI interfacing and operation. I am happy to live with those quirks if I get superior audio as a result.

randy-11
1,913 posts
 
Lots of great used ARC tube pre-amps under $3500 - I just bought an LS25 Mk II for $2500 with new tubes
whiterockman OP
21 posts
 
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I should have left out mention of the low pass filter setting on the AR as anything that goes through the 5.1 input on the AR is pure analogue pass through with no filtering at all. It is this same input that 2 channel SACD goes through as well (since coming from the same player), hence no signal to the subwoofer. This also makes me think changing the speaker settings to "small" would have no effect as there would still be no signal going to the sub. It may be worth mentioning I do have full range speakers but still appreciate the sub for the very low end. The Bryston intrigues me and I appreciate the suggestion. I will have to look into that. In addition, the Marantz and Emotiva sound like they are both worth checking out. I do not believe my Oppo player sends the DSD signal through HDMI (pretty sure it converts it to PCM) but will re-read the manual. If this is the case it may render any pre-amp that accepts DSD through HDMI a moot point unless I upgrade the Oppo to a player that will allow DSD through HDMI output. Thank you again for pointing me in the right direction!
auxinput
2,920 posts
 

Just so that you know:

https://www.oppodigital.com/hra/dsd-by-davidelias.aspx

The Oppo will support sending DSD signals over HDMI, but only if you use the HDMI 2 port on the Oppo -- and as long as your AV processor will decode DSD from HDMI.

noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
whiterockman,

     You may want to simplify and just upgrade to the Oppo-105 and forget about using a separate preamp or processor.  The Oppo-105 is very versatile and has a better capacity to be utilized as a high quality preamp than the Oppo-103.  

     I really don't understand why you would want or think you need a separate preamp.  A used Oppo-105 or its soon to be released replacement will do everything you are looking for.

Tim     .
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