Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD


Hi All.

Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.

I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.

Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?

All opinions welcome.

And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.

Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
mattnshilp
Ctsooner, I hate to disagree with you but I must. All systems are NOT synergistic.

We have seen way better results in some instances of using a tube preamp with a solid state amp sometimes from different companies.

We have also seen that sometimes too much of one companies products can tilt the sound in an unfavorable way while in some instances  company A's amp plus company A's preamp does indeed sound better.

As per synergy you would think in our main demo rig that the T+A preamp, plus the T+A amp, plus the T+A reference SACD/CD/Dac would sound the best, after all they are all from the same company and were designed together, yet the Davinci still sounds signigantly better. 

So if your point was valid then the all T+A system should sound way better yet it doesn't.

In your case Vandy Treo and Vandy Quattro are voiced similarily same with your friends B&W, if you for example moved from Vandy to Magico, or Vandy to Rockport, or Vandy to Rahido you would probably not be digging the combo with Ayre. 

The Vandy/Ayre combo works at the Vandy's tend to be a bit on the overally warm side with the Ayre's being a bit lean. So the combo works beautifully which is the defination of synergy.

We tried many brands of expensive reference gear because they did not work well with some of our speakers. For example we tried the Thrax gear which was fantastic stuff, and CJ, and Devialet and none sounded as good as the T+A gear on both our Polymer speakers as well as the Personas.

When we had the Scaenas the CJ combo was magical and sounded better then our reference solid state Chord stuff at that time. 

So synergy is when you find a set of speakers, electronics, digital, cables  power conditioning etc that work together to create a sound that you find that works to your particular taste and sonic expectations.

The main reason for why so many people flip their gear is they do not know how to create synergy, when sometimes just changing cables or adding a few things can make a system come alive. 

Troy and Dave
Audio Doctor

Great stuff!! I'm not sure CT meant what he said the way he said it. Peter and I have had many off thread conversations about system synergy and the importance of component matching. People buy from reading instead of listening; I think that was more his point.

I have heard MSB and felt as you did. The MSB unit came and left. I owned a Lampi Big 6, not a 7 or GG. The 6 was built well but had a garage made appearance and feel. I think the GG is a significant step up and has the ability (from hearing it at shows) to make its owner very happy. As I said, i have not heard a Playback Designs in my room. If anyone wants to arrange an audition I'm happy to listen.

Listening tastes, room acoustics, equipment synergy, hearing capacity, cable voicing, electrical and vibration isolation, and seating position ALL affect our experience and interpretation of a system's overall performance. I've had DAC's in my room that I loved and a friend strongly disliked, and vice versa.

I believe almost every DAC listed can be properly integrated into a system to create an emotionally engaging system. My system, my ears and my tastes have led me in the direction I have shared, and will continue to share.

Descriptions from myself and others should help to define different DAC's qualities so that buyers can make more educated decisions. Base purchases on descriptions of sound described here, and then listen for yourself!!!
Matt, thanks for sharing.  Yes you understand what I was saying.

"All systems are synergistic."  Sorry that I didn't post the way you could understand.  I actually was called by another poster who did understand what I was saying.  I can see where it could possibly mean what you thought it meant, but I've been around long enough to know that system matching is always critical.  That's pretty basic stuff, but thanks for your examples.

Matt, I'm excited to see how you feel about some of these others DAC's now that you will have what you feel is a great reference.  I'm looking forward to coming down to listen once it's broken in.  Will be a fun time.
The very current state of music servers (I just wrote this article last week, posting here first):

The technology behind Music servers is still brewing and percolating. I would say they are past puberty now, bounding towards young adulthood but still with room to grow and time to physically and intellectually mature. They are all built from the same parts: A hard drive storing the music as an Ethernet based NAS or as an internal hard drive (spinning or solid state), a computer needed to run software that allows selection of the music to be listened to, some type of translation device to convert that selected music data to a language and conduit the DAC can talk to and understand (either directly outputting USB or requiring a translator called an Ethernet Renderer that essentially converts those little magic packets of Ethernet information into a more standardized USB signal), some form of distribution hub, and a power supply. As with all audiophile gear, each component in the system including the cables that connect those components, the quality and speed of the parts used, the internal and external shielding from noise those components (and cables) are sensitive to, and the quality of power supplied to the equipment all determine the final performance of the system. Two solutions seam to be most common, and two methods of data transmission; although at this time one of the two methods must, at some point, be converted to the other before being able to speak to the DAC.

Music servers now exist as either independent and purpose built components with everything in one box (or one box with an external power supply) or as essentially separate components with everything above separated. The same task is accomplished either way. In the end, both must output either spdif, AES/EBU or, most commonly, USB. At this time most DACS don't accept Ethernet as a standard input; and those that do still require an Ethernet Renderer inside the DAC to convert the Ethernet packets into USB or bypass USB and convert directly to I2S which the DAC chip can understand.

An all in one music server internally houses and utilizes either Microsoft, Linux or a Mac operating system (usually Microsoft or Linux) and many have opinions about which is the best. Separate systems either use the simple Linux operating system built into the NAS or actually use a computer running Linux, Windows or MacOs that has been modified to use only those computational systems that are required to run the software which allows you to select the music. These computers are customized or custom made. A similar system has been designed and built into a dedicated music server. The separates system utilizes Ethernet to communicate with all of its parts until the final step. Ethernet is known to have galvanic isolation advantages and noise isolation advantages as a result of how packets of information are sent and reconstructed, which demands that all the information first arrive and then be converted. This, theoretically, results in less data transmission errors in a system isolated from certain types of noises. The problem is that each component along the way is still sensitive to noise and sensitive to the quality of its power supply. A dedicated music server houses everything in a single, shielded enclosure and shares a power supply, or several power supplies. Dedicated servers output their signal to the DAC via either spdif, AES/EBU or USB. USB sends its signal in a more linear fashion and is more susceptible to data errors, and is not galvanicly isolated. It does, however, have its advantages and many who are in the know believe that USB is still a better signal path and has many years of usefulness left before it goes the way of Betamax and the cassette.

After the computer and software point the music in the hard drive to the converter it needs to be beaten, manipulated and "reclocked" to essentially clean the data stream and get the most perfect set of bits possible to the final step. Again, this can be done with a separate device or internalized within the single chassis of a dedicated server. It then must end its long path by being converted via what's called an Ethernet Renderer from its little magic packets into standard USB to be passed on to the DAC for final conversion.

A dedicated server transits all of this information within. Some of it is, in fact, transmitted via Ethernet but many convert to USB or direct to I2S as quickly as technologically possible. Long Ethernet runs don't degrade sound at all (which is a luxury of a separate system since components can be placed far from the listening area), but very short runs of most other signal type yield better (i.e. less noise) signal transfer. Most prefer solid state media storage these days, whether internal or external. And most prefer their operating software on a separate solid state drive from the storage drive. There ends the descriptions and pitfalls of a dedicated Music Server. A system of separate devices is reliant on one more device, the Switch which allows everything to talk to each other in super fast two way data lingo that listens to the software running on the computer to direct those bits of music data on your hard drive to run as fast as they can to your DAC and get bounced around, attacked by noise, reclocked, and eventually converted to USB so your DAC can take that final step and make good old fashioned analog music signals with them. The Switch can utilize either copper wire or fiber optic wire to transit the Ethernet signal (optical obviously adds an extra layer of noise isolation but also adds more boxes to muck with the data stream). All of these boxes then require high quality linear power supplies to make the entire system sound its best. The NAS, computer, Switch, Ethernet Renderer, Reclocking devices and any optical converters used ALL require moderately expensive and well built power supplies. And they ALL require high quality (i.e. costly ) cables to connect them. As a result, a simple separate system including a NAS with built in Linux running music server software can send its signal to a Switch (which every house these days has anyway) and then to an Ethernet Renderer for USB conversion to a DAC, and there you have a relatively cheap and very good music server. To put together something more reference level requires top notch power supplies (Paul Hynes seams to be the resident expert and supply source), customized computers with solid state drives, lots of Reclocking, a good switch and an Sotm or MicroRendu Ethernet Renderer with lots of good cabling throughout. I believe the final separates system's result is WAY cheaper then the average top tier single box purpose built Music Server but requires quite a bit more effort to select, assemble and implement. Can a system of separates sound better then a purpose built dedicated Music Server? I don't see why not. To a tweeker and tinkerer it would not even be considered effort to put a high end multi-component system together. To someone on a serious budget it would be a worth while effort that would be paid back with huge dividends. To, I believe, most audiophiles, its not worth the complexity and DIY feel that putting together a true high end Server system would require. I could be wrong though, considering the audiophiles propensity towards "separates" like amp and preamp, or DAC and transport.

As a small aside, and to be through, someone has come up with a way to run the computer/software box directly to the Ethernet Renderer by utilizing 2 Ethernet ports and bridging them. The results are reportedly a significant improvement in sound quality by bypassing the need for a Switch in the signal path. I'm not sure how complicated this is to achieve, but the concept is logical and removes a box that touches the data, can add to its corruption and offers another point for noise to enter the system. I can refer anyone interested to the on line thread this idea is discussed.

Dedicated servers have now been out for years and those that make them have revised and tweaked these hardware and software packages to high levels. As I said, they are no longer anywhere near infancy. Some have come out with packages that are, sort of, half way systems with Servers that house the computer, software and typically a storage solution and export Ethernet to be rendered externally as more DAC's start to become available with built in renderers and more (and better) external renderers become available like the Microrendu and soon to be released SoTm SMS-200 ultra. But a fully equipped dedicated Music Server can now serve up the goods in true Audiophile fashion. And if you do have the know how, financial restrictions, DIY desire or tinkering prowess to put together a reference level multi-box Music Server then you will be equally (and some think more then equally) pleased with your results.


Hi I am from the UK and 15 -20K $ seems like a good chunk of cash to me.
My previous source was a Naim NDS which I would have thought you could buy 2nd hand for that sort of money, it is a streamer and a dac built in with quite a few digital inputs.
I have heard it with the files stored on a nas drive and some of the most engaging music I have ever heard was on this set up and the source was standard cd's.
This set up then also gives you the ability to use it as a dac for your other digital sources.
I did in the end replace it with the DAVE Dac from Chord - 8,ooo UK, I think it lives up to the hype, I am not sure if I had the time over I would do the same thing.
I would have that you should not have a problem finding a Naim dealer willing to do a home demo.
Naim also make a similar device called an NDX that works the same way, I also had one of those but sold it to buy the NDS, I have since heard that if you upgrade the power supply that this gives the NDS a run for it money.
Naim also make seperate DACS and althoght I have not heard them I would imagine that they would have a lot in common with the sound I was used to. I hope this helps
Matthew Lewis