Considering switching from Audio Research to PrimaLuna, troube with VS115 amp

Roger Modjeski, when addressing my audiophile society, noted that high quality line stage preamps are something that manufacturers should have under control, the principles being well understood.

Not that I have Mr. Modjeski's credentials (de nada, I'm a lawyer who can't replace a house electrical box switch), but I agree with him.That said, there's a huge difference between a "high quality" preamp and one that delivers that elusive magical quality that many of us lust for. Charles Hansen gave Sasha Matson of S'Phile an interview published in the July 2016 issue and he describes what I am referring to best (sorry for the long quote but anything shorter fails to convey the point);

SM: At this point, is the tired old debate of solid-state vs tubes over?

CH: Yes and no. It kind of goes back to the best of times and the worst of times. There are two different things going on. There's the surface, and what is underneath the surface. On the surface, things have been converging for a long time, and that's what you read about. But then there are some writers that talk about what is under the surface. When you read something from Art Dudley or Herb Reichert, they aren't talking about soundstaging or imaging or resolution—or all these terms that first [J.] Gordon Holt [founder of Stereophile] and then Harry Pearson [founder of The Abso!ute Sound] came up with. What it boils down to is that when you listen to music, it makes you feel a certain way, and that's why you listen to it. It's not because it sounds a certain way. And how do you talk about your feelings? So the sound of tubes and the sound of transistors have been converging—but what about the feeling?

I didn't really understand it for a long time. When I first made the Ayre MX-R amps and KX-R preamp, I thought, Okay we've done it. We've made stuff that is so good it's as good as tubes—why would you bother with tubes? But I would still get customers and manufacturers who would say, "Yeah, that's nice, but I'm still sticking with my tube piece, because you haven't got there yet." And one of my weaknesses, for better or worse, is that I have such a big ego, I don't have to listen to other kit. I just listen to my own designs. If I had, I would have known what they were talking about.

When we made the KX-R Twenty, we took all our ideas we had been working on for 20 years, and getting feedback from people who were able to teach me how to listen better, and what to listen for—20 years of hard work. And then I hooked up the KX-R Twenty and I went, "Holy cow! This is what they were talking about. No wonder they didn't want to listen to solid-state—this is what they wanted to hear." It just hit me: This is what all those tube nuts were talking about. I would send stuff off to these dyed-in-the-wool tube guys, and they would say, "Nope, it's gotta have a tube in it or it's never going to work right. No, it's just sand. How can it sound right?"

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/charley-hansen-wizard-boulder#yIxjlPqiVQzUfxSQ.99

Dennid Had writes about his recent single ended amp designs (especially on his Ebay listings…the only actual marketing of his amps other than headphone stuff) here and there but doesn't publish specs, offer a warranty, or guaranty anything…adorable. Also, not sure if his stuff sounds "5 times better" than anything else (with appropriate speakers), but based on what I've experienced it might.

Oh, one last thing Kevin, should you happen to see this; twice now you’ve mentioned this six-position testing regimen. What in the hell does that have to do with anything? Do gravitational forces effect electrons flowing through a piece of kit? Now you sound like one of those self-proclaimed space/aerocraft engineers! These are NOT chronometers! (I am a watch guy too). Oh, I lied. One more thing-by state of the art standards, Alps Blue Velvet volume controls are universally viewed as mediocre/undesirable. With any pre-amp, the volume control is absolutely critical.

Factories charged with making electronics, especially for aerospace and defense industries, not only rotate them to make sure every solder joint is perfect but will also put them into "shaker" machines to make sure they stand up to vibration. In fact shaker machines back in the old days used 6550 and KT88 power tubes!!

As to the Alps Blue Velvet, it’s an EXCELLENT part. Period. I suggest you look at how they measure, and read the comments of Stereophile Editor In Chief John Atkinson when he benches PrimaLuna products that use them.

In his last review of the HP integrated he said:

"Balance remained within .25dB and the frequency response didn’t change. The DiaLogue Premium obviously uses a high-quality part for its volume control"


Have you learned about the volume control of the new preamp you are buying? I’m sure it’s fine and should be a step up from what they use in the VSI75, which is the Analog Devices AD5293 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD5293BRUZ-50-RL7/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuD%2f7PTYBwKqdeb0...

Of course the best volume control is a stepped attenuator. Got that. But then you have steps and no remote (unless you go with one of the new super tweaky ones).

The message is this: The Blue Velvet measures well and lasts, and it’s not a chip. Using the AD5293 would be less expensive. But PrimaLuna wanted the best sound and I think what they have supplied is pretty damn nice...especially in a preamp weighing 37.5lbs that is dual-mono, tube rectified, with point to point wiring. For $2199.

I too collect watches. Hard core. And I think that many people dream of owning a Rolex. Rolex makes a good, serviceable watch. And the company has done an excellent job of marketing "the dream" and most important...controlling the ability of their dealers to make a profit through careful handling of distribution.

But if you open a Rolex, and talk to a real horologist that knows watch movements, you will see that Rolex is machine and mass produced more than most brands. To an incredibly high standard. But a serious watch collector would never compare them to a Patek, Lange, Jaeger, and the other brands where the movements are finished as works of living art. Having said that I’m wearing a Rolex Submariner right now! I love it. But I don’t kid myself about what’s inside. I know I’m paying for the prestige.

Audio is often times like watches. The price is determined not by the engineering and build costs, but by how much they think they can charge and not have them sit unsold on a shelf. It’s completely arbitrary. That’s why I keep harping on using Google Images to look inside any given product so people can see for themselves and count up the parts. Anybody can do it. None of these parts cost that much, except transformers.

I'm wearing an Oris Diver 65 with a Selitta SW200 movement and a riveted steel band. A work of art for 1200 bucks! (sorry…I'm also serious watch guy...hard core!) An interesting thing about Rolex is how insanely successful those guys are…actually make over a million watches a year…whew...

Kevin;
You're a good guy too! I could not agree more about Rolexes and anyone who even casually reads the watch boards knows that what you say is true. Do you know about the NOMOS Tangomat? German made rather than Swiss, but movement is made in-house with incredible precision and decoration. A fraction of the price too, compared to any of the names you list.If you like the look, MyChrono is the place to buy-steep discount!
So now on to the discussion at hand. I will pass on the rotational thing. I could take a cheap jab that it shakes out extra resistors that the robot threw in during assembly. You refer to dual mono as did Herb Reichert-I do NOT believe any of the PL products are TRUE dual mono BALANCED designs. Consumers are mislead as to the distinction.As to the volume pot, measurements don't tell the whole story. once again. There is no measurement for how a volume control SOUNDS. I agree with you that chip-controls are shite. The VSI75 you keep referring to is an unfortunate "lifestyle" piece from ARC with obvious compromises. I have complete faith the volume pot in the Ref 6 is light years better sounding than the ubiquitous Alps Blue Velvet. My el cheapo Little Dot headphone amp has that exact same volume pot! And contrary to popular belief-including my own until being educated on the subject), most experts agree that ladder or resistor-stepped attenuators, while damned good, do not sound the best. You won't find them in the top ten widely admired present-day preamps. Charles Hensen has much to say on that subject too.