Sonic qualities of SET output tubes?


Can you readily identify a 300B, 2A3, 805, 211, etc., amp’s sound with your eyes closed most of the time?


If so, I’sure would like to hear from you.


Amplifier design and the technology utilized within its confines decides the ‘voice’ or influence it will yield as much or more so than merely the output tubes the designer has chosen to use.


I get that part emphatically. One must hear the amp regardless the type of output tube technology on hand.


And yes, some Pentodes and Tetrodes are used as Triodes but are not indeed triodes by their specific architecture. That’s OK, just focus on their use as Triodes herein, please.


There are however certain tube types, irrespective of vintage which have basic undeniable sonic colors or characteristics, apart from their electrical aspects which keep attracting people to amps which use this or that tube in its output stage.


Some love 211s. some adore 300Bs. Some love EL34s configured to run as Triodes. I have an affinity for the latter. So far anyway. This topic could change my mind.


Has your own experience informed you what this or that output tube’s natural flavor regularly announces itself to be so you can have a reasonable expectation of its general presentation?


What sonic attribute continually attracts you to a particular SET tube design, 300B or some others?


Or, conversely, what is it about the sound that would bring you to covet a 211 amp over a 2A3, for example.


Why as another example, would you pick a 2A3 amp over one using 805s or 300B, 211, etc. or vice versa?


Removing ‘vintages’ and electronic or electrical qualities from the argument, what sonic attributes for the more popular S.E.T. amp output tubes have you determined seem to persist in their particular DNA?


I’m asking for input from those SET tube devotees to lend their experiences and knowledge on the subject of what tube sounds like what irrespective of the SET application, generally speaking.


My goal is to try getting a better feel for which SET Tube amp design, if any, I’d want to pursue and possibly invest heavily into going forward as the soul of a new system.


Tremendous thanks to all!

blindjim
@blindjim 

The trying not exceed 20% of an amp's power was specifically mentioned by Ralph for SET tube amps due to their nature in how they distort. As I understand his point, I went back to read it carefully, one must be particularly careful with speaker matching with this type of amp by avoiding higher order harmonics.  

His statement does not include SS, Class D, OTL and other type amps.  Ralph, could you please confirm.

Blindjim ;

I took a peak down this rabbit hole as well as the one next door addressed as high efficiency speakers .

One of the responses by Ralph addressed the difference between the requirements of SET amps and PP amps . He stated the same desirability of running a SET at a maximum of 20% power . But then he stated how PP amps really needed some power to sound their best ... like maybe 20% + power .

After peaking down the HE speaker rabbit hole , I found it difficult to find speakers that were affordable , at least halfway aesthetically pleasing and suitable for my situation .

Right now I am content with what my current PP amp is doing and seeking improvements in other directions . I have spent quite a bit of time rolling input , driver and power tubes to get where I am .

While I still may seek out a SET amp in the future , I think that I would have an easier time finding one in the PSET realm where speaker choices would be more plentiful due to the added power of the topology .

Have you given any thought to PSET's ?

On a different note...I believe that you are in the TB area . Where would you go to hear different tube amp demonstrations ?


Good Luck .

What am I missing?
Grannyring got it in one- well done!

Apparently that this applies specifically to SETs and not to other kinds of amps. For example, despite being zero feedback (like SETs), our amps make a fraction of the distortion at full output (about 0.5% if set up correctly) so you have a much greater *percentage of usable output power*.

I like to use that idea of ’percentage of usable output power’ as its a number that can vary widely from amp to amp. Generally speaking, tubes have greater usable output power than solid state amps seem to have but SETs are the exception.

This is all about distortion, which all amps make so the ’percentage of usable output power’ has to do with the **kinds** of distortion that are particularly objectionable to the human ear. These are the higher ordered harmonics (5th and above, particularly the 7th), IM distortion, and in the case of class D, inharmonic distortion (caused by intermodulations with the scanning frequency; similar to aliasing in digital audio).

Because the ear converts all forms of distortion into tonality (including aliasing), the distortions above all manifest as some form of brightness and hardness. By contrast the lower ordered harmonics are perceived as ’warmth’ and ’bloom’.

Its quite worthy of note that these objectionable distortions always occur in very small amounts as opposed to the lower ordered harmonics- the issue is that the ear is far less sensitive to the lower orders. In this regard I propose a ’weighting’ scheme so that trace amounts of higher ordered harmonics can be seen for what they really are- which is to say: audible!

In SETs, the first onset of higher ordered harmonics is heard as ’dynamics’ by the ear as musical energy often occurs on transients where greater power is required (in a way fundamentally different from solid state, which tends to make the the higher ordered harmonics all the time). What happens is the higher ordered harmonics (to which very importantly the ear uses to calculate sound pressure) are thus only showing up initially on the leading edges of transients and no where else, so then it is perceived as ’dynamics’. The problem is, once you are aware of this fact its easier to hear that what is really happening is the amp is making distortion. So the simple act of reading this paragraph may have ruined it for some people. To avoid this you simply need more power or more efficiency. More power in an SET means it won’t sound as good and therein lies the dilemma!

Of course all forms of distortion are to be avoided, but avoiding the the objectionable forms is far more important overall for a pleasant listening experience. This, in a nutshell, is why tubes are still around nearly 60 years after being declared ’obsolete’.

One thing that has really become evident in the last 15 years or so is that if the loudspeaker is a higher impedance that avoiding the more objectionable distortions is easier to do **regardless** of the amplifier technology. I think speaker manufacturers are slowly figuring this out as there are more 16 ohms speakers now than there were 15 years ago. Put another way, if you are tying to make a lower powered tube amp sound like music, a four ohm load is absolute anathema!

Its my opinion and also my experience that four ohms has no place in high end audio (IOW if high quality audio production is in fact the goal). The cables are more critical and all amps sound harsher and less detailed on four ohms as opposed to eight or sixteen all other things being equal. Its not only audible, you can see it in the specs of any amplifier made.
This is such a great thread and I now better understand, technical reasons,  why I have been so frustrated in the past with some wonderful SET amps. The music was wonderful at lower volumes, and they did drive my speakers to go very " loud " I was initially impressed, only to find the sound not to my overall liking longer term.

It was this whole issue of sounding "loud" when a system should not sound loud when turned up. Rather, the performance should simply swell and grow with greater impact etc....

My mistake was not the particular SET amp, but pairing the amp with a 4-8 ohm speakers with sensitivities ranging from 89-93db.  My 8-20 watt SET amps, while playing these speakers loud, always fell a little short of greatness. Greatness at low, moderate, and higher volume levels.


atamasphere,

Very nice information,thank you.

I quess in the golden days of audio weren't most speakers 16 ohm to be more tube friendly in that respect.

Kenny