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PREAMP technology shift? - Class A/ balanced/ dual-mono/ zero feedback vs. op-amp preamps

Hi all,

Even ten years ago, it seemed that the gold standard for solid-state pre's was some combination of the following: Class A/ balanced/ dual-mono/ zero feedback or local feedback. Recently, I'm seeing a range of well-reviewed preamps, from Schiit to Rowland, that use new, high-quality op-amps in their circuitry, to the extent that I wonder if op-amp technology, and chip manufacture in general, has gotten so good that some of the tried and true markers of quality (MOSFETs, Class A circuits) are not in the market except at the highest end, and even then, see also Jeff Rowland. Or is it that manufacturers are looking to less power hungry designs (I know that Rowland was concerned with meeting EU efficiency requirements in its latest designs) and so avoid Class A, for example? Does balanced/ dual mono seem less popular because separates are now less popular than integrateds? Have we reached a tipping point with op amps?

Here's a more focused question. I have invested in a 90s era Aragon 8008BB dual mono balanced amp, but i have an early 90s B&K PRO10-MC that I want to upgrade. Is a Schiit Freya a significant step up, or should I save my pennies for a used, more recent example of the old school: Classe CP500, Pass Labs Aleph or X2.5, or a good example of a newer approach, the Rowland Capri. Speakers are Vandersteen 2CE Sigs. Input impedance of the Aragon is 44 kOhms. 

The tube route is always possible, but I like the idea of a no-fuss, very clean ss, valuing sound stage and detail over warmth, which makes me think I'd be wasting my time with the Freya (any shoutouts for its JFET stage?)

Thanks for letting me wonder aloud!

Paul


paulburnett
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,837 posts
 
@audioconnection

anyone who is running a tube PRE amp into a low input impedance amp should be alert that they won’t achieve bliss.

Just a FWIW, we make two balanced tube preamps and both can drive 10K no worries. They have a direct-coupled output so no loss of bass driving lower impedances.

For you to claim op amp Pre amps
out perform a ref tube unit without stating the conditions is misleading
and wanted to point this out.

I agree- I have yet to see an opamp based preamp that can keep up.


The tube route is always possible, but I like the idea of a no-fuss, very clean ss, valuing sound stage and detail over warmth,
If you like soundstaging abilities, so far I've yet to see a solid state preamp that can keep up with a good tube preamp in that regard. It always seems that low level detail suffers on the solid state preamps.
guidocorona
4,298 posts
 

My apologies Johnny, your automotive metaphores are quite impenetrable.

　

Per the following page:

　

http://www.aragonav.com/8008-bb-mondial

　

The Aragon 8008BB has a balanced input impedance of 44KOhms, which is commensurate with the 40KOhms of three of my amps. It does not appear to have the 100KOhms input impedance that you asserted.

　

Interestingly, the input/output impedance ratio of my 40KOhms amps vs Ref 3 -- as well as versus ARC LS28 -- is

　

40,000Ohms / 600Ohms = 66.66 (periodic),

　

which exceeds the minimum safe threshold of 20 by a factor greater than 3. This strongly suggests that my Rowland amps are comfortably compatible with REF3. Similarly, the corresponding ratio on the Aragon 8008BB is

　

44,000Ohms / 600Ohms = 73.33 (periodic),

　

which is not staggeringly different.

　

The hybrid ARC LS28 is doubtless a lovely linestage. I have heard it at RMAF, and liked it. From my admittedly non-tuboholic point of view, with its SS power supply, it has the advantage over the REF series of limiting retubing to every couple of thousand hours or more for the 6H30s, as there is no fast-burner 6550 in the power supply which in old REF3 required a replacement every 1K hours or so.

　

It is worth pointing out that at $7500 new, LS28 is almost twice as expensive as the Rowland Capri S2 at $3995. From sheer memory, and not having heard the two linestages in the same system, it was not apparent to me if LS28 yielded any audible advantage over Capri S2. On the other hand, a side by side comparison of a well broken in pair in the same system might shed some light about any relative audible advantages of one over the other. However, preferability is hardly an absolute: personal musical taste and sonic priorities of the end user play a major role in every evaluation.

　

Saluti, G.


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seanheis1
625 posts
 
If you like soundstaging abilities, so far I've yet to see a solid state preamp that can keep up with a good tube preamp in that regard. It always seems that low level detail suffers on the solid state preamps.
I have noticed that my tube amp has a much deeper and wider sound stage than my AB amps. When I tried a Class D amp, the sound stage was incredibly shallow. Is this due to the damping factor (output impedance) or something else? 
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,837 posts
 
^^ Something else :)

 
paulburnett OP
45 posts
 
This is a great discussion, and I am grateful for all of the advice and opinions. Concerning impedance matching: I know about the 20x rule of thumb for input impedance of the amp over the output impedance of the preamp. If the dividend is in the ballpark, does the impedance ratio really matter to the sound? What does a low or high ratio roughly within the "20 times ballpark" sound like? 

I shouldn't rule out tubes. I've never A/Bed good tubes vs. good solid state in my system, and I probably should. I just know I would be neurotic about swapping out tubes, worrying about when to do so. It's bad enough worrying about needles! ha ha

 
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