@blindjim
I went back and read the account of your condition. I'm now enlightened. I do appreciate the knowledge. As for me, I grow impatient with websites and I can see just fine. Now I have a new appreciation for your world.
@ctsooner
I also have an appreciation for yours now as well.
So, I feel it would be helpful for you both to know where I'm coming from when you read my posts. First, I've been into the highend since the 80s once I could afford it. My current system is:
McIntosh MA6500 integrated
Martin Logan Vantage speakers, powered 8" woofer
Oppo 105
Shunyata Power and a few PCs
Harmonic Technology speaker and interconnect
PS Audio power cords
I've had this system for 10 years and really like it. It also does 2-channel home theater duty as well. And my next system will have to do the same.
I live in SoCal and four years ago I started going to the audio shows in Newport as well as going to the LA & OC audio society GTG's. Mostly just for fun at first but after a while I realized the quality of a well set up and synergized system. I found myself first pulled into Mbl and their electronics. I still am, they are just so much fun to listen to from the entry level system, about $32k, all the way up to the Extreme System (I've heard many of the mega-dollar systems and the Mbl for me is the undisputed king). Then when the Wilson Audio Sabrina came out a few years ago, and I heard it with ARC gear, I found another speaker/system I was very intrigued with. High resolution yet a sense of pace and as ctsooner says, exciting. These two speakers, along with the Marten Django L and Vandersteen Treo CT have really caught my attention.
Here's how I've heard them set up:
Mbl
I've heard all their systems and I like the synergy that an all-Mbl system brings. The entry level system with the Mbl 126 standmount speaker (two 5.5 inch woofers), C31 CD-DAC, & C51 integrated (Class D). This setup is so musical and exciting, can pressuring a big room and is supremely lovely.
Sabrina/ARC
The Wilson Sabrina is just so good with Audio Research tubes. First heard them with the newer Gsi75 integrated (75 tube watts), Bricasti M1 DAC and Audioquest wire (if I recall correctly). This was at Sunny's in SoCal. Wow. Many at the get together really liked this system, I still remember that day. I walked away in love. Later heard the Sabrina's with D'Agostino gear and Bricasti MI and the same feeling, but the D'Agostino gear is well out of my price range. Then heard them most recently at the LA Audio Show, Sunny Audio again, with the ARC LS 28 pre and VT 80 amp (75-tube watts) and was just smitten. Spent a long time in that room. Heard vinyl, which was very good. But so was the ARC Ref CD9. Every digital track was just so good. I often dream of that system too. Pretty sure it was using
Audioquest cable. 75 quality-tube watts have absolute authority over the Sabrina's. I would really like to hear them with T+A HV series integrated plus CD DAC.
Marten
Django L with Zesto tube gear, Merrill Williams turntable and Cardas cable. Heard this only for five minutes at the LA show but was very impressed and may pursue farther. Will also research ctsooner's comments in regards to this company.
Most recently Vandersteen Treo CT
Haven't heard them since the 2C model 30 years ago. McIntosh tube pre and SS stereo amp plus sony hap-z1es. Not sure what the week link was, but think it could be even better and I like McIntosh. With this gear it was ultra smooth and revealing but lacked a bit of sparkle the Sabrina's and Mbl bring. I'd really like to hear the Quatro Wood CT and Ayre electronics.
The reason I mention in detail the speakers and electronics is because I believe unless you choose each of these two very carefully, you'll never achieve the best synergy. I feel the speaker/amp interface is the most critical in system synergy. It is all important, but you must get this right.
Before I sign off Jim, you mentioned the Sopra 2s. I've heard them a bunch of times and all but one time they were a turn off. Heard them with both tubes and SS. The one time they were pretty good was with PrimaLuna as I mentioned previously, and PS audio direct stream DAC with Mac book and pretty expensive cable (forget brand). Very well setup. But for me, they don't compete with the speakers mentioned above. They are a step down for me.
@ctsooner - I'll probably contact you at some point on Vandersteen.
@blindjim - best of luck in your search. |
Prof > “…do I ever agree with you”
“Having to wade through the body of the review hoping the reviews has stated these somewhere is so aggravating.”
Blindjim > DITO.
A casual owner account on a membership based forum has one bar to overcome. Professionals, or supposed ‘journalists’ need to be held to a much higher bar. They do a dis-service to the manufacturer and reader to approach articles on equipment which exceeds rational financial good sense so regularly If or when they purposefully omit or casually ignore pertinent data on the device under evaluation.
I’m beginning to feel such things are an indictment of the current sociall zeitgeist reflecting specifics and details, form and content are no longer integral feature sets of writing technical assessments more often than not.
I’m fairly competent anyone can say, “this is the best my rig has ever sounded! Or This is the most incredible ….. “” Although its nice to hear and adds a modicum of confidence about the product itself, perhaps, what then?
I’ve archived maybe 60 or more accounts on various gear in the past month or three. Read still more. Many were similar accounts of the exact same item, penned by different folks.
It sure seems any number of current ‘professional’ appraisals are little more than just letters to another associate who is as or nearly as familiar to the product as is the critic expressing their subjective views.
There are some outstanding writers too. Tafel, Dudley, Fremer, Atkinson, and more I am sorry I simply can’t immediately recall. The really good ones are able to convey much of what their perceptions are regarding the gear under the spotlight. They keep the focus on the item and not on themselves. Albeit, I’m not always in agreement or understanding some remarks as the media they use is totally foreign to me, or is introduced via analog sources, or thru comparisons with other likewise but unfamiliar gear, but I always get the gist of it… I think.
BTW…I took journalism classes, and seem to recall Editors are supposed to well, ‘edit’ oversee, and or have someone ‘proof’ whatever article is up for publishing as its all on their shoulders ultimately, and not the critic du jour.
Apparently, The 2000’s are a whole different ball game.
Prof > This is one reason why I appreciate Stereophile reviews so much: I always know exactly where to go for the specs and measurements.
Blindjim > of them all, Stereophile does justice to their accounts front to back.
TAS is another very good source for above average accounts.
Dlcockrum > ctsooner is a good dude but
Blindjim > everyone is or has good in them.
Passion is one thing. Comprehension is quite another thing.
Just say to someone they are ‘special’ and regularly of late the reply is, “special how?” “Short bus special?” etc. the ongoing level of acrimony is quite high. Higher than its ever been and more than ever online.
One can’t just race about with scissors in hand and with blinders on, seeing only their path.
OK… I’m gonna burn this soap box now. Once I find a lighter.
Ctsooner > “… Jim, condescension is how I read your posts, but maybe I was wrong. I'll reread and if wrong, I am sorry….”
Blindjim > “… other people told me…” “…””… Troll” “….”…if wrong…. MS!? “…condescention….”
I await your apology.
There was an air of disdain although it was not aimed at you!!!! That was evident in the very first few lines. It could not have been more clearly stated.
What followed as was again said rather plainly, my irritation lay with those online articles that would not reveal thoroughly important aspects of the loudspeakers, and why I asked that info of you…. if you plese.
Other’s saw this squarely.
Its also about self determination. Not living via a concensus from whomever won’t even post their own thoughts on the matter and goad you into doing it. . Some of these
sentiments and or words are flatly hurtful and as previously said, injurious. Plain and simple.
My best friend of 20 years wife, has MS. Advanced. She and I get along famously. Never have we misunderstood one another. When we disagree, we don’t go to name calling.
The best ally for anyone posting online is to grow some thicker skin. Fully read and comprehend what is actually being said and not consider other posts as personal affronts & accusations.
The second best ally is paitient thoughtful consideration.
The third best ally is the DELETE key.
If all of these fail, the only course of action needed is an amends..
pokey77 > I went back and read the account of your condition. I'm now enlightened.
Blindjim > I regret posting my challenges. It should not matter but it seemd the shortest route to unclutter the likely ‘cluttered’ discourse. Number one tenant for myself is to not hurt anyone with what I say or do. I do the best I can.
pokey77 > Jim, you mentioned the Sopra 2s. I've heard them a bunch of times and all but one time they were a turn off. Heard them with both tubes and SS. The one time they were pretty good was with PrimaLuna as I mentioned previously, and PS audio direct stream DAC with Mac book and pretty expensive cable (forget brand). Very well setup. But for me, they don't compete with the speakers mentioned above. They are a step down for me.
Blindjim > hmmm. Interesting. Really. The insights are most valuable. Thanks.
Ever hear the Sabrinas with MBL electrics?
Correct me here, but aren’t MBL speakers akin to di pole non point source type speakers? Maybe similar to Nola?
I find it curious the 87db WAS speaker wit 4ohm IMP did very very well with 75wpc Mac amps. How big was the room (s)?
Room and certainly setup is key. I do feel though, synergy is still a result. Having a shorter path to it is always nice.
I know I’ve heard this or that rig and felt I could afford this or those parts of it, but never felt I could just whip out the plastic and say “gimme it all!” which would settle a whole lot of later issues.
Last note… people here tout Ayre electrics as killer most often. I’ve only heard it in arrangements wherein the sound was so dry and calculating it never grabbed me at all. Always with speakers of $18 to $30K. highly resolving, quite detailed yet just another ho hum affair.
All I could see was ‘potential’ for one pair of the speakers that were the orig Sophias..
Consequently, what size room the Sabrina’s will work well up to is a real curiosity. For the moment, as it is for any speaker system, naturally. I do so dig the WAS Sabrina/Sophia esthetic and overall size. Its electric numbers IMHO aren’t thrilling.
Thanks much.
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@blindjim
Hi Jim,
No, I've never heard the Sabrina's with Mbl electronics. Have heard them with several different ARC pieces and the D'Agostino gear, both were very good to me. D'Agostino is unaffordable for me though.
From the Mbl site, they call them an "omni directional speaker". The sound is somehow everywhere. A person can stand in front of one speaker but it does not seem to significantly affect the sound or imaging; pretty amazing. The Nola's, to me, sound a bit more bright and are not quite as special to me as Mbl. This recollection is from the LA Audio show, so whatever model of Nola they were playing.
Sabrina's and room size. At the LA Audio Show, the room was pretty decent sized, say 14' wide and 20-25' deep. Speakers at one end, the audio rack at the other, maybe 9 or 12 seats approximately. It was pretty magical in there. Not I don't write in fanciful audio terms since I am just a lowly aphile' who knows what he likes. Heard them in another smaller hotel room a different year and wow, same deal. Finally, heard them at said dealers place, Sunny Audio, and this is a pretty big room with maybe a half dozen systems in it. ARC Gsi75 integrated (75 tube watts), Bricasti M1 DAC and Audioquest cable. This is the demo that got me hooked about 2-3 years ago -Sidenote, also heard them at Sunny's in a different room with the new Arcam integrated with room correction. Without room correction it was not very good, with it switched in it was pretty good, but not ARC good. Possibly it could have been as good if it was dialed in better but I couldn't vouch for that. The Arcam was only $3,400. I'm not sure how large a room the Sabrina would work in, but you could call Sunny and ask.
His name is Sunil Merchant and his number is
626-966-6259. I've no affiliation and have never purchased from him. But have been to his shop for a number of get togethers. He seems a stand up guy and loves music.
To correct your question, it was not Mac with Sabrina, but Mac with Vandersteen. I have heard Mac with Mbl and I felt it was soft and lacked the sparkle and excitement of a full Mbl speaker and electronics system.
I am at the point that I want to find the synergy and do the "give me it all" option. I don't want to experiment, I just want to get it as good as I can and start enjoying. I'm some ways from making any choice, but I can say, as I may have said to you before, I keep coming back to Wilson Sabrina/ARC and Mbl. They have been the most consistent and pleasing for me.
I do not recall hearing Ayre; may have at a show but don't remember. But based on what you are saying, it may work well with the Vandersteens. I felt the Vandersteens with Mac were a little soft and lacked some of the sparkle or excitement the Sabrina's have with ARC. Supposedly Ayre makes Vandersteen come alive, and that from more than one source. I could tell though that the Vandersteens had significant potential. There were a few tracks played that gave me more of what I was looking for and so I think that with the proper integrated they would sound better. They were very nice top to bottom and never flustered by complex material or rising volume levels. -I do like McIntosh with Martin Logan ESLs. I've heard the SS amps with several of the ML speakers and it was good.
BTW, forgot to mention when I heard the Sopra 2s at their best with PrimaLuna tubes recently, I also heard the ARC Vsi75 with KT150 tubes at the same time and the sound was near identical with the slight advantage to the PrimaLuna. |
pokey77 > I am at the point that I want to find the synergy and do the "give me it all" option. I don't want to experiment… , I just want to get it as good as I can and start enjoying. I'm some ways from making any choic….
blindjim > man! Do I hear that! As usual, huge gratitude.
I’m hung up on what I want as the power line and what could be eual or better than that for the power train of my system.
By the time I’m ready & able, they’ll have chips we can have imbedded into our physiology that will produce live concert experiences and we can download anywhere at anytime.
I feel I’d very much like to go with VAC sig preamp and to start with, one 200 IQ amp. Immediately, this is a bit more than a drop in the bucket no matter . how deep the pockets. $42K MSRP. Add another 200 I Q? $14K mor to get to 200wpc from the 100 wpc stereo amp. The 2nd amp is of course, an option.
An alternative view here is using only the VAC sig pre with ??? SS or hybrid amp (s). Master Audio’s Classsic is around the VAC amp cost. PSA BHK 300 amps are similarly priced as the ‘Classic’. Haggle, Vitas, and others in that range are considerations. Even the Boulder 800 series amp, constellation entry level amp, and even on an older brand loyalty frame, BATs latest 655? Is still on the list.
I’ve found a component of speaker and amp combinating is the actual ‘control’ of the drivers using at least, or more than sufficient watts. There is IMHO a notable improvement in SQ and all of its respects. Usually.
It seems regardless the sonic quality coming from the speaker, more often than not, an ‘as’ compentnt amp with more power sounds better. This is of course, plus or minus tube power vs. SS power. It is a better or more fair comparison to look from SS to SS as most tube amps simply don’t always come in the option of 300, 400, 500, or more wpc. As well, SS watts are far cheaper.
Hearing your accounts of what IMO is minimal power of 75wpc as applied to the speakers you point out, is not too surprising, as I don’t know of the listening levels achieved, yet as said, feel mo’ watts would be better. Keeping the same or closely similar quality in the more powerful amp.
In any event quality power equates to quality results. Everytime. Everytime so far in my EXP. The idea of the PL power adds another bolt of zest as does another amp matching you mentioned previously.
I do very much like the idea of coming out of this without having to drop $20 - $25K on speakers and would prefer, in spite of the boring run in periods for new one, buy new speakers, not used. $20K + speakers would have hidden costs as I’m likely gonna want to go see them first and theres that fee too.
Oil well. Hearing your exp has been quite beneficial as it usually is with any actual personal experiences from private owners.
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@blindjim
I have not heard VAC in a good setting but get that they can sound great on the right speaker. Kinda out of my ballpark cost wise.
You wrote: "Hearing your accounts of what IMO is minimal power of 75wpc as applied to the speakers you point out, is not too surprising, as I don’t know of the listening levels achieved, yet as said, feel mo’ watts would be better. Keeping the same or closely similar quality in the more powerful amp". I can tell you the first time I heard this was the ARC GSi75 integrated and it sounds like it has many more than 75 WPC. Myself and others in that room couldn't believe the authority with which it played the Sabrina's. I've only heard at moderate but toe-tapping volumes and all I can say is wow.
You mention Hegel and I like their sound. I heard at three of their products at LAAS: a very nice combo was the $6k integrated with internal DAC paired with KEF Blade 2s. Very nice. Maybe not ARC/Sabrina good but very nice and not fatiguing or outlandish. Just nice music reproduction. They had a demo where they played their new Rost Integrated, switched to the H360 Integrated with built in DAC, then to their reference separates; all with the KEF Blade 2. There was much greater difference between the Rost and the H360 than between the H360 and the reference separates. Was a great demo.
You mentioned Constellation. I've heard some of their gear in an unfamiliar situation. Would like to hear their entry-level integrated paired with Sabrina's or Vandersteen. As you wrote, "In any event quality power equates to quality results. Everytime.". Very much agreed. Heard a friends very nice T+A components work wonders on some Craigslist $300 speakers (don't recall manufacturer). Really, a system is only as good as its weakest link. A $100k pair of speakers with a $1k integrated will sound like the cheap integrated. Not that you have to spend exorbitant sums of $$$, but you need to spend a decent sum to get there. The difference to me in systems in the $5-15k total cost range vs $30-45k systems is huge. Kinda wish I had never heard the more expensive offerings! |
