Do I need Pro Logic IIx?

Hello Again,

After calculating room nodes and finding out how many people will be in the room most often and correcting construction material issues, (mismatched density issues in walls and ceilings), I find out listening levels and habits.

I then match a speaker to the room based on the rooms ability to present frequency extremes and sustained pressure level taking into account the speakers dispersion and the performance limitations it will have in relation to placement.

When I find a speaker that has the right balance of trade offs, I determine the speaker’s character and weaknesses and I choose electronics that will boost up the weaknesses while leaving the strengths alone making the overall performance well balanced.

Examples:

B & W speakers need solid state amps that have a lot of decay in the bass but are clean, have tube like highs above 8 KHz. and have a fast and foreword midrange. (BAT, Symphonic Line, Electrocompenet, Classe, to name a few.) Bad matches would be Krell, Levinson, Bryston, and Conrad Johnson.

After that is chosen, if there are any characteristics that the client loves the most, (Bass power, 3 dimensionality, airy or sparkle), I fine tune that part with the pre-pro and cables.

For set up I place the right speaker against the wall firing into the room and move the left speaker into the room a 1/4" at a time until a bass note in the music I am playing sounds an octave deeper. At that point the speaker is working with the room instead of against it. There will be 3 or 4 points in the room that this will happen and I choose the one that has the best midrange as well or I compromise based on how much room it eats up or if it will be in the way. I then move my head up and down and find the sweet spot with in the speaker and if it is lower than the listening position I add rake to the speaker until it is tonally balanced and smooth without any sizzle or hollow sound.

After I find that spot I move the right speaker into the room until I no longer hear a bass note on one side lead the other in time.

After this is done I do the same thing to the center channel just playing stereo music into the left speaker that will no longer move and the right channel going into the center speaker. I move the center speaker until it locks in. Then I go around the room going between the left front and the left rear, then the right front with the right rear. The rears I move up, down, left, and right with in a range and find where it locks in.

I then integrate the sub or subs by movement, phase, rake, and toe in.

Now are you bored? LOL

This process of speaker setup takes about 5 hours.

Thanks,
Duane

Forgot to say that I run the center chanel .5 db down because most movies are too hot in the center and I adjust the xover on the subs in 2 Hz increments and are usually riding between 24 and 32 Hz.

Thanks,
Duane

Duane...Duane Duane Duane...I'm waiting for you to get to the calibration process. Yes you are boring me...with pamphlet rhetoric. To be perfectly honest, you sound like a Rives Audio brochure. Nothing against Rives...great knowledgeable people. But you have completely and totally tap danced around the question. You've only mentioned the following (put in a nutshell):

1)"After calculating room nodes and finding out how many people will be in the room most often and correcting construction material issues, (mismatched density issues in walls and ceilings), I find out listening levels and habits." "I then match a speaker to the room based on the rooms ability to present frequency extremes and sustained pressure level taking into account the speakers dispersion and the performance limitations it will have in relation to placement."

You've visited one of the many web sites that will calculate possible room modes, nodes, spikes, and dips for you. Then you consult various audio magazines, website reviews and write-ups for products that will "best suite" your clients tastes and wallets.

2)"When I find a speaker that has the right balance of trade offs, I determine the speaker’s character and weaknesses and I choose electronics that will boost up the weaknesses while leaving the strengths alone making the overall performance well balanced."

More audio reviews to consult.

3)"B & W speakers need solid state amps that have a lot of decay in the bass but are clean, have tube like highs above 8 KHz. and have a fast and foreword midrange. (BAT, Symphonic Line, Electrocompenet, Classe, to name a few.) Bad matches would be Krell, Levinson, Bryston, and Conrad Johnson."

You approach surround like 2Ch. Name dropping and such. So, you only recommend the products that you sell. The others are just bad matches. Besides, who needs to know electronics, when all you need to know is the product you wanna sell.

4)"After that is chosen, if there are any characteristics that the client loves the most, (Bass power, 3 dimensionality, airy or sparkle), I fine tune that part with the pre-pro and cables."

Another 2Ch approach.

Before you get up in arms, I am not anti-2Ch. However, let me point out this is surround sound.

The rest is just too much to copy and paste so I won't bother. In so many words, you move speakers for the next 4 of the 5 hours until you "lock in" the "sweet spot."

MC 101 - MC done properly...every spot in the sound field is the sweet spot!

So...that being said... do you at least auto calibrate your pre-pro/receiver?

Ohh..almost forgot

5)"Forgot to say that I run the center channel .5 db down because most movies are too hot in the center and I adjust the xover on the subs in 2 Hz increments and are usually riding between 24 and 32 Hz."

Your center is still too "hot" and you sub xover is too low. Care to explain why?

and of course...

6)"I then integrate the sub or subs by movement, phase, rake, and toe in."

I thought low frequencies, especially those handled by the sub, were omni-directional? From a non-distinguishable standpoint, that is.

I'm being a little tougher on you, yes I know. That’s because you're the professional and this site is dedicated to those who search for the answers in areas to include the pros. Just wondering if you can help us out. ;)

Duane very interesting post:

"B & W speakers need solid state amps that have a lot of decay in the bass but are clean."

How does one determine when an amplifier has alot of decay in the bass?

"For set up I place the right speaker against the wall firing into the room and move the left speaker into the room a 1/4" at a time until a bass note in the music I am playing sounds an octave deeper."

Very thorough, might be the way i'd setup a Sonus Faber speaker,

"This process of speaker setup takes about 5 hours."

Doing it the really hard way by Duane :), people pay you for this time? I need a sales course from you.

"I adjust the xover on the subs in 2 Hz increments and are usually riding between 24 and 32 Hz."

If the processor allows those increments....of course and you're way under utilizing the subs, even with b&W 800's setting the croosver to 50 hz splits 2 typical room modes and increase dynamic range, ps throw sock in the port when you do that..

"I move the center speaker until it locks in. Then I go around the room going between the left front and the left rear, then the right front with the right rear. The rears I move up, down, left, and right with in a range and find where it locks in."

Yeah that doesn't work bud, you're not associating the speakers correctly. Sumiko teach you that too?

I hope a lot of people that know me on here see this thread because they will vouch that

A. I don't read reviews nor use them to sell.

B. I recommend things I don't sell all the time and every week I tell someone that a certain product I carry that they want is not right for them or their system. Read my feedback.

C. Bass is directional except in the frequencies that are the room nodes because the whole room amplifies the sound.

D. I do set up theater systems like an Audiophile because the brain responds to unnatural tonal balance, phase shifts, and electronic and mechanical insufficiencies with listening fatigue.

E. My systems do have a sweet spot as does everything including the RPM on my car but with speakers that are very wide in dispersion you can walk around in the room and hear no holes and have good placement of sound effects.

F. Rives audio is a good company but if there is a problem or character to the sound that they can't verify with measurements then it doesn't exist.

G. I use a Sencore to verify performance to the customer and to record it for changes or service in the future. I cheat though because a flat system to a Mic is not the same as an ear. Even when I do large church sound systems I fine tune by ear.

H. I do follow Sencore and ISF on video calibrations because my eyes are not nearly as good as my ears.

I. If a speakers is well designed, the fronts and sometimes the center can run full range with better dimension and agile body to the bass. If this is the case, a true sub performs much better reproducing the air movement of the event and deep bass that is ambient noise whenever we are outside. This is what makes the walls disappear.

J. I did go to Sumiko but all they did was verify what a lot of us already knew. The 2 things they did teach me was that the movie directors and studios do care about sound quality and making events sound real and they showed me a teachable method for speaker setup that was just instinctive before.

K. My mentors that agree with me have many US patents and even 1 patent is very difficult to get.

Actually I forgot to keep looking back at the post and just rambled on, sorry.

Sound is sound regardless if it is a singer or a gun. The reason theaters can cheat and get away with a non audiophile approach is because everyone knows what a singer sounds like and very few people know what a plane crash sounds like.

In spite of my tone I am still having fun; I just like having these discussions in person or over the phone.

Duane