Moving the Soundstage; Help.

@lowrider5710
Looking for advise... I installed new Tung Sol EL34B's in my amp, burned them in, and they sound wonderful. The problem is the soundstage is now forward of the speakers. This has never happened with my system before, even with changes between SS amps, tube and SS preamps, cables. My system has always been laid-back with mid-concert hall seating; now I'm in the first row. Do to room size, I listen from 8 feet away in the near-field.

I would have offered burning in the new tubes was in order, but you say you did that already.

No other chages at all? Now its front row from mid hall.

Initially the thought was most tubes were old or well wron and new fresh ones provided what should have been all along except you said the situation continued even interjecting an SS amp, if I read it correctly. Though, SS amps have quite different dispositions with respect to listening perspectives.

It seems a pretty sure bet the new 34 tubes have rearranged your seating perspective. Or, something else was changed you’ve overlooked or forgotten. Isolation footers for ex.

I had one instance completely opposite of yours wherein I had a front third of hall to mid hall LP and a pair of 4-5 db more eff speakers rearranged it forward to a front row LP.

I changed EL34s to CED ‘winged C’ from JJs. No diff.

Then I changed some 12AT & 12AX to NOS RCAs. No diffs. Later another swap from those same NOS RCA 12AT7s & 12AX7s to Amperex bugle boys in my line stage next, LP remained the samebadnwidth was vastly improved dynamically with great bass improvement. Still a very close perspective of the performance and performers.

In a BAT VK5 line stage I saw Phillips, Telefunkens, and some but not all Amperex’s lay the SS further away from the LP. Installing Amperex PQ US 7308 white lables did edge it closer to the LP.

As I began to enjoy that wrap about the head at times presentation I became very OK with it.

Some pcs later on did migrate it away from my LP but I had been tainted and passed on those more ‘laid back’ sounding power cords as they came and went.

I would tend to agree some things could fix it… maybe. Different EL34s as everything migrated after they were inserted might revert it.

Perhaps too if something akin to Amperex 7308 Orange color only, not white or green, can be had somewhere in the preamp, then maybe that’s a fix. Although a 6DJ8 – 6922 replacement, maybe Amperex made 6SN7s. dunno. Their orange lables had a decidedly laid back presentation. No sonic issues though but subjectively a bit more polite akin to Levinson amps voicing.

70s models NOS Phillips came closest to the Amperex Oranges.

Never cared much for Tunsol input tubes, only 5881s.

Room treatments using absorption about the LP might reduce the ambient cues you are now more aware of since the new ELs arrived. Don’t think diffusion would do the same thing there. But then, maybe. Shouldn’t be too hard to lay up some soft squishy items beside and behind your LP. And or, some at reflection points, even above the speakers or just above and forward of them.

Diff EL 34s, diff Power cord, or room treatment rearranging.   Perhaps all of it.
Very good luck. Hope it works out and you come back and state what it took to regain your listening preffs.

I don't know anything about your setup and you may have already tried this, but if your speakers are toed-in just try turning them out slightly. Yo may not get the results you're looking for but it's free.
Kenny

Thanks for your your input, @blindjim . All good suggestions.
Here's an update; I have some extra absorbtion panels that I built, so I tried various positioning behind the speakers and on side walls. The minimal approach is still the best for imaging, 2 panels only. I have a tapestry and wall hangings behind me for standing waves. As I stated before, it's a living room.

The Tung Sol did become less aggressive at about 200 hrs, but still a forward presentation. I replaced the Mullard NOS drivers with Brimar cv4003's and soundstage is now wider and deeper, (love them ). I think I can live with this.
Also tried Bugle Boy as input gain, but too much "sting" at the top. The Amperex Orange sound interesting, have never tried them.

As far as PC's, I have all Audience and one PS Audio which are all laid-back. Very happy with them.
I'll look into Orange tubes for preamp or amp input stage, and after next paycheck maybe different EL34s.

Thanks Kenny, speakers are toed-in, and I'll play with position some more.

well, would you be opposed to putting the LP now, behind the speakers? lol. just a thouhgt. sorry.
I think the orange and Green lable Amperexs were 60s – 70s iterations. Its been a while. Sorry I can’t be more specific.

Rolling tubes is like baking a well, something. It will change depending on what and how much of this or that goes into it or doesn’t go into it. No one can ever really tell what the final results will be until the results are finalized.

My inference on the CED EL34s was meant only to show some 34s do nothing to the geography of the SS, they just affect the sonics.

Elrod is a laid back PC. Or was….

Dampening the area about the LP seems the best tact, albeit, for a true living space, they’ll needs be ‘mobile’. Arranged when listening. Removed when not.

Whatever was about the speakers that did not change needs not be changed now. Possibly something needs be added and in that area, diffusion appears the best path in my EXP.

Albert Von S. told me once how to treat a room cheaply and how much of it to treat. He said 50 – 50. Absorption and diffusion. Season to taste.

One item can be both things. Albert treated an auditorium in my area and used cloth panels. Rugs. Long runners. Hanging them and spacing accordingly… accordingly to your preffs. Or in his case the needs of the room for conveying live music.

I’m never keen on killing or deadening the area about the speakers and prefer a livelier situation up there. Moving back, its different. Absorption sucks up tones. Diff absorption sucks up different tones at different levels. Maybe a pair of absorptive panels at first reflections vs one is now required. Or placing them higher off the floor onto the wall. Can’t say how big they would need to be either. Maybe pretty small. Dunno.

Only one way to find out.

This is pretty interesting IMO. I’d like what happened and not change anything… but that’s me.
Again, all the best….