sorry I'm late.
@georgehifi
Thanks for the insights. I sincerely am grateful for them.
RE – compatibility
From what you are saying it remains a dicey prospect to try considering an amp & speaker combo without knowing some of the measurements of the loud speakers. In particular the phase angle…. What ever that is.
georgehifi > Don’t just talk watts, talk about the watts be able to double for each halving of impedance as well.
Blindjim > Hopefully, I’m beginning to get the gist of an amps characteristic to double down in fact, with IMP halving, as it speaks to an amps ability to remain consistent or cohesive when powering the entire bandwidth as the speaker makes its demands for more power here on that freq or less on this freq for whatever SPL is being requested.
Isn’t this ability to instantly supply intricate and exacting speaker demands aided or even supplanted by having on board an enormous cap storage power reserve from which to draw upon?
Installing enormous banks of caps for reserve or auxiliary power does appear a philosophy some makers prefer to employ in their amps topologies wherein the doubling facet is not its inherent trait.
It seems too this is a tact utilized by amp makers that do not use negative feedback designs, and limited gain stages.
As I’m seeing on youtube, and many are seeing in person at shows loads of amps are providing very capable competent performances with a very wide assortment of loudspeakers. Albeit, many amps on display are larger outputting amps. Mostly. Though not all.
Gryphon KODO speaker system for example being driven by their Mephisto 175wpc amp has I believe 32 drivers and overall, weighs a ton. Appears a formidable load for any amp, let alone one rated under 200w @ 8.
= = = = = = = =
@kosst_amojan > It's kind of assumed that the amp will deliver whatever current the load demands for the voltage. Higher impedance, less reactive speakers do better with current sources though.
Blindjim > huge thanks for the considerate reply.
since I was introduced to Ohm’sLaw decades back I’ve always had to think the proportionate relationship between voltage and current remains constant respective to the load.
Consequently, the mention of each article, voltage and then current being now, somehow unrelated confuses me.
This thing needs voltage… that one neds current… Hmmm. WTH?
Regardless, if a thing needs current or voltage those needs should be met depending on purely the voltage exciting the potential or here, the amp feeding whatever load.
The only question in my mind then is how large to make the supply or categorizing amps as to their outputs, how many watts can this one or that one feed to the load in general?
= = = = = = =
And, yes. We’re back to looking at watts… not current or voltages for comparison’s sake. This is not necessarily my desire, but what other more appropriate baseline is there for choosing amplifiers?
My EXP says arguably, when it comes to amps, money often dictates not just the amount of power, but how well it is served and the quality with which it is provided to prospective loads.
Its easy to see as well, there’s no slide rule that solves the riddle of which amp fits which speaker, adequately, very well, or perfectly, and as with most equipment arrangements in audio, it’s a best guess scenario that obliges one to lean on the EXP of the amp and or speaker makerand or that of your own practical real world experience.
… and that is too bad.
And a bit of scary excitement at the same time.
I feel going on the rated or claimed power is the best one can do when finding their way thru the forrest of amplifiers.
Be it an advertising ploy, or hidden because of advertising gratuity, the proof is always on the pudding. Pairing whomever up to whatever will undeniably unfold the truth.
As for the obsessive desire for humongous watt outputting amps, I agree, it is mostly senseless. A belt and suspenders approach for sure. Too many watts is a non issue. Too few is a sincere worry.
Perhaps that notion alone says why many hold to mega watt amps as their default system amp.
Decades back, it was me too.
I’ve seen first hand a pr of EL34 monos putting out reputedly 120wpc, but IMO more like 60wpc as they were but four in each amp… were able to drive to quite satisfying listenting levels a pair of 3 way towers that were rated at 87db 4 ohms. The maker said to me the IMP on these units could drop as low as 1.9 ohms.
Using the 4 ohm taps, things were pretty good. They were here so I had to find out more about this watts vs watts argument first hand. Rated vs measured. Tube vs SS.
At this point all I know is 4 EL 34 tubes wired as ultralinear do quite well with moderately sensitive speakers whose IMP aren’t supposed to be considered tube friendly.
Further eXP from buying used speakers showed me what happens with speakers when someone feels they should use them as PA speakers but only have a 60wpc INT to push them with. Two tweeters needed to be replaced of the four on board as clipping burnt them out..
It took a while for me to figure this out but that is or was indeed the facts. I had the BAT VK 500 at that time and I;’mn sure the Big BAT had enough juice to keep them from clipping..
As for the quality of da watts…. Invariably, I will always have one, and likely two or more amplifiers available at any given time. None are monster amps. All at rated power of < 200wpc. All are SS. Multi ch, 2 ch, and multi ch receivers. The lowest rated output of nay amp is 110wpc. I regularly now use one of these if not more, to run in what ever speaker before even thinking of putting it into a main system. Low to moderate levels for a month.
In the interim, it’s a learning experience to see how few watts it takes to achieve very good results with many various and varied loudspeakers..
The obvious diffs in amp to amp is not volume but Quality of the presentation. Every time.
@georgehifi
Thanks for the insights. I sincerely am grateful for them.
RE – compatibility
From what you are saying it remains a dicey prospect to try considering an amp & speaker combo without knowing some of the measurements of the loud speakers. In particular the phase angle…. What ever that is.
georgehifi > Don’t just talk watts, talk about the watts be able to double for each halving of impedance as well.
Blindjim > Hopefully, I’m beginning to get the gist of an amps characteristic to double down in fact, with IMP halving, as it speaks to an amps ability to remain consistent or cohesive when powering the entire bandwidth as the speaker makes its demands for more power here on that freq or less on this freq for whatever SPL is being requested.
Isn’t this ability to instantly supply intricate and exacting speaker demands aided or even supplanted by having on board an enormous cap storage power reserve from which to draw upon?
Installing enormous banks of caps for reserve or auxiliary power does appear a philosophy some makers prefer to employ in their amps topologies wherein the doubling facet is not its inherent trait.
It seems too this is a tact utilized by amp makers that do not use negative feedback designs, and limited gain stages.
As I’m seeing on youtube, and many are seeing in person at shows loads of amps are providing very capable competent performances with a very wide assortment of loudspeakers. Albeit, many amps on display are larger outputting amps. Mostly. Though not all.
Gryphon KODO speaker system for example being driven by their Mephisto 175wpc amp has I believe 32 drivers and overall, weighs a ton. Appears a formidable load for any amp, let alone one rated under 200w @ 8.
= = = = = = = =
@kosst_amojan > It's kind of assumed that the amp will deliver whatever current the load demands for the voltage. Higher impedance, less reactive speakers do better with current sources though.
Blindjim > huge thanks for the considerate reply.
since I was introduced to Ohm’sLaw decades back I’ve always had to think the proportionate relationship between voltage and current remains constant respective to the load.
Consequently, the mention of each article, voltage and then current being now, somehow unrelated confuses me.
This thing needs voltage… that one neds current… Hmmm. WTH?
Regardless, if a thing needs current or voltage those needs should be met depending on purely the voltage exciting the potential or here, the amp feeding whatever load.
The only question in my mind then is how large to make the supply or categorizing amps as to their outputs, how many watts can this one or that one feed to the load in general?
= = = = = = =
And, yes. We’re back to looking at watts… not current or voltages for comparison’s sake. This is not necessarily my desire, but what other more appropriate baseline is there for choosing amplifiers?
My EXP says arguably, when it comes to amps, money often dictates not just the amount of power, but how well it is served and the quality with which it is provided to prospective loads.
Its easy to see as well, there’s no slide rule that solves the riddle of which amp fits which speaker, adequately, very well, or perfectly, and as with most equipment arrangements in audio, it’s a best guess scenario that obliges one to lean on the EXP of the amp and or speaker makerand or that of your own practical real world experience.
… and that is too bad.
And a bit of scary excitement at the same time.
I feel going on the rated or claimed power is the best one can do when finding their way thru the forrest of amplifiers.
Be it an advertising ploy, or hidden because of advertising gratuity, the proof is always on the pudding. Pairing whomever up to whatever will undeniably unfold the truth.
As for the obsessive desire for humongous watt outputting amps, I agree, it is mostly senseless. A belt and suspenders approach for sure. Too many watts is a non issue. Too few is a sincere worry.
Perhaps that notion alone says why many hold to mega watt amps as their default system amp.
Decades back, it was me too.
I’ve seen first hand a pr of EL34 monos putting out reputedly 120wpc, but IMO more like 60wpc as they were but four in each amp… were able to drive to quite satisfying listenting levels a pair of 3 way towers that were rated at 87db 4 ohms. The maker said to me the IMP on these units could drop as low as 1.9 ohms.
Using the 4 ohm taps, things were pretty good. They were here so I had to find out more about this watts vs watts argument first hand. Rated vs measured. Tube vs SS.
At this point all I know is 4 EL 34 tubes wired as ultralinear do quite well with moderately sensitive speakers whose IMP aren’t supposed to be considered tube friendly.
Further eXP from buying used speakers showed me what happens with speakers when someone feels they should use them as PA speakers but only have a 60wpc INT to push them with. Two tweeters needed to be replaced of the four on board as clipping burnt them out..
It took a while for me to figure this out but that is or was indeed the facts. I had the BAT VK 500 at that time and I;’mn sure the Big BAT had enough juice to keep them from clipping..
As for the quality of da watts…. Invariably, I will always have one, and likely two or more amplifiers available at any given time. None are monster amps. All at rated power of < 200wpc. All are SS. Multi ch, 2 ch, and multi ch receivers. The lowest rated output of nay amp is 110wpc. I regularly now use one of these if not more, to run in what ever speaker before even thinking of putting it into a main system. Low to moderate levels for a month.
In the interim, it’s a learning experience to see how few watts it takes to achieve very good results with many various and varied loudspeakers..
The obvious diffs in amp to amp is not volume but Quality of the presentation. Every time.