Thiel 2.3 vs 2.4 the real difference


Ok, there were some arguments around, some even so hot that point was missing. I am very curious what difference can be found between the two. I have a chance to upgrade mine 2.3 but would like to hear from you first. Any switchers like me have something to say?
bunkeromantik
I was fortunate enough to demo the current version of the 2.3s and 2.4s in my dedicated listening room for over a week. I am using a ML 27.5 amp which is rated at 100WPC.

I found the Thiel 2.4s rounded off the sharp highs (maintaining accuracy) that the 2.3's had a reputation of. The bass goes deeper and remains tighter than the 2.3 as well. I would say that they still sit on the analytical side of the fence, but not to the same degree as they once did.

Good electronics are still a must.

The 2.4s are also easier to drive than the 2.3. The impedance curve is much nicer on you amp.

My overall assessment I think could be described as, the 2.4 did everything as least well as the 2.3, although on some material the 2.4s were better. The 2.3s never surpassed the 2.4's on any recording that I listened to. I ended up choosing the 2.4 over a nicely priced pair of 2.3's.

I did find that placement of the 2.4s was fussier than the 2.3s. It took me a while to dial in the 2.4s. The 2.3s didn't take as long.
Now that is a decent comment. Thank You a lot. You cleared a lot in my mind.
In my recent set-up I find my 2.3 to be acurate with no sharpness to it. Sometimes I even felt I would like more top-end energy but I think I found it with introduction of new IC. It is still burnig-in so I reserve futher comment.

2.4 is much easier to drive compare to 2.3 that is obvious. Don't you think the sharper highs you noticed on 2.3 could be an indication of not enough juice out of your amp? I am using powerhouse amplifier (SIM W5 LE) and prior to the new IC I could use more sparkle on top. Plese do not get me wrong I am not highs freak and I hate when it is bright - I had my 2.3 bright on some set-ups and it was frustrating.
Some reviews point that 2.4 are a little bass-shy in terms of quantity. Would you say 2.4 produce more or less bass compare to 2.3? I understand you prefer 2.4 bass over 2.3 it terms of quality. But that could also be amp-related. I couldn't think of my 2.3 bass to be any tighter without losing body and mass. I still think it could be more developed esspecially in mid bass. Lower bass is stunning.
Bunkeromantik,

You might be right on the amp power. I have not yet tried a more powerful amp. I am hoping to upgrade that piece some time this year. I also feel it might have to do with my room being somewhat narrow (12 feet), I was forced to use some toe-in which causes the tweeter to beam a little, and I think the 2.4s were a little easier to handle than the 2.3s. If you are pointing straight ahead like Thiel recommends, this may not be an issue for you.

I found that the bass wasn't more, but it went down deeper than the 2.3's, and I think the overall all bass region was more controled (not that I thought the 2.3 was sloppy by any means). I actually had to pull my speakers away from the back wall a little more to calm the bass down. I can't imagine that the 2.4 can't produce enough bass unless you are a big pipe organ fan, or you have a large room to fill.

The biggest thing I found with both speakers is that changing the placement, even slightly, can have a big impact on sound. If you are missing some sparkle, then try a slight toe-in using small adjustments at a time. One other thing that I forgot to mention is that I think it is an absolute must that your listening position is at least 8 feet away from the speakers on the 2.4's. I don't remember if that was the case on the 2.3s
If You will search for a new amp if possible audition SIM AUDIO W5. It did a tremendous job in controlling low end and filling-in the midrange of my 2.3. It does wonders on dynamics and palpability of the sound. To this day I am not sure wich I love more my Thiels or the SIM. Thankfully I got both. One of Audiogoners made me buy it and I am very greatfull to him. Just check it out, pal.
Sorry to be so late adding my comments, I don't peruse the forums like I used to. The thread I started 12/03 about this is still there but not found when searching the archives. I've owned late-model 2.3s for a couple years now, and compared them at length to 2.4s with very good equipment at a store when I posted these observations, and still stand by them:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1072120269&openmine&zzSdecker&4&5#Sdecker

I've heard 2.4s a number of times since, but my listening impressions between 2.3 and 2.4 have remained clear to me. I'm sure by now the original poster has kept his 2.3s or moved on, but I have a couple comments. No doubt if I had 2.4s at home for awhile I'd pick up on even more subtle differences (hopefully improvements).

Swklein's initial post effectively said in a couple sentences what took me a couple paragraphs in my original post. The 2.4s clearly have more warmth and openness through the mids which does move it slightly closer to a more-relaxed Vandersteen (and others) sound while retaining the best aspects of Thiel's analytical side too. I also found the 2.4 to have a bit more bass energy, but no less lower-treble forwardness, and even more top-end sizzle. Also they're a bit easier to drive, as has been pointed out, but I'm fortunate to have a high-current amp with plenty of guts into difficult loads (ie my 2.3s), and ditto for the hardware I had at my disposal when comparing the two models. I think some of Dewinkle's observations are due to his amp and room limitations.

Cinematic_systems throws in a wrench. I have no reason to discount his frustrating experiences trying to mate these speakers to his rooms and electronics, I'm sure he spent all the time he suggests trying his best to make them work. OTOH, tons of 2.3s were sold from dealer showrooms worldwide, weren't they Thiel's most popular speaker ever, at least then? And while he gives full credit to the 2.4, I just have never heard such a remarkable difference between the two such that the "2.3 is a bad speaker with many problems and the 2.4 corrects them all".

I've measured my 2.3s in my room (admittedly near-ideal setup and acoustics) several ways in lots of positions and don't find a boosted top-end or big crossover suckouts, but it does show a certain upper mids forwardness, just as I also heard on the 2.4s, and what gives all Thiels their 'bright' reputation. Good electronics are essential, though I haven't played with speaker cables or interconnects (yet?) to try and alter the sound. My 2.3s are many feet away from any walls, 8' apart and 9' from my ideal listening position: those with narrower, brighter rooms may have more setup problems than I've encountered, but my guess this would apply equally to 2.4 as it's at least as 'bright' to my ears. Both speakers have very little radiating area for their price/size, a 6.5" (cone-diameter) woofer and 2.5" mid, combined with the shallow crossover slopes and huge number of crossover components I feel limit their ultimate SPLs and microdynamic transparency more than say a B&W 804 with larger cones and steeper slopes. But what sonic tradeoffs for time/phase alignment?

I've read all the reviews of both speakers and we all know you gotta try and read between the lines. My take is the 2.4 is better received by the press as a whole than the 2.3, despite its having purely evolutionary tweaks on the same design. But as cinematic_systems points out, in 5yrs technology marches on and lotsa small judicious improvements can change a speaker's character substantially for the better.

Which comes down to the same thing Buda offers. Is the 2.4 worth upgrading over the 2.3? Yes, I feel it's definitely a better speaker that offers more bass, fills in the lower mids, has a more transparent midrange presentation, but doesn't alter the accept-it-or-hate-it upper mids forwardness, and is at least as hot on top as the 2.3. The 2.4 does some significant things a bit better than the 2.3, the 2.3 probably does nothing better than the 2.4, but I think they equally share many of the same attributes and deficits. But let's face it, the speakers sound very similar to each other versus either Thiel to any other brand of speaker.

I haven't figured out how much *I'd* be willing to pay for the upgrade on the used market as I'm off the big-ticket merry-go-round for awhile. If the 2.4s were traded straight up for my 2.3s I'd sure do it, but knowing that there's always better audio components out there, and I remain satisfied with my 2.3's presentation, I'll leave well enough alone for now.

Sorry, I guess I'm getting sucked back into the hifi fray again :-O