Thiel 2.3 vs 2.4 the real difference

Sorry to be so late adding my comments, I don't peruse the forums like I used to. The thread I started 12/03 about this is still there but not found when searching the archives. I've owned late-model 2.3s for a couple years now, and compared them at length to 2.4s with very good equipment at a store when I posted these observations, and still stand by them:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1072120269&openmine&zzSdecker&4&5#Sdecker

I've heard 2.4s a number of times since, but my listening impressions between 2.3 and 2.4 have remained clear to me. I'm sure by now the original poster has kept his 2.3s or moved on, but I have a couple comments. No doubt if I had 2.4s at home for awhile I'd pick up on even more subtle differences (hopefully improvements).

Swklein's initial post effectively said in a couple sentences what took me a couple paragraphs in my original post. The 2.4s clearly have more warmth and openness through the mids which does move it slightly closer to a more-relaxed Vandersteen (and others) sound while retaining the best aspects of Thiel's analytical side too. I also found the 2.4 to have a bit more bass energy, but no less lower-treble forwardness, and even more top-end sizzle. Also they're a bit easier to drive, as has been pointed out, but I'm fortunate to have a high-current amp with plenty of guts into difficult loads (ie my 2.3s), and ditto for the hardware I had at my disposal when comparing the two models. I think some of Dewinkle's observations are due to his amp and room limitations.

Cinematic_systems throws in a wrench. I have no reason to discount his frustrating experiences trying to mate these speakers to his rooms and electronics, I'm sure he spent all the time he suggests trying his best to make them work. OTOH, tons of 2.3s were sold from dealer showrooms worldwide, weren't they Thiel's most popular speaker ever, at least then? And while he gives full credit to the 2.4, I just have never heard such a remarkable difference between the two such that the "2.3 is a bad speaker with many problems and the 2.4 corrects them all".

I've measured my 2.3s in my room (admittedly near-ideal setup and acoustics) several ways in lots of positions and don't find a boosted top-end or big crossover suckouts, but it does show a certain upper mids forwardness, just as I also heard on the 2.4s, and what gives all Thiels their 'bright' reputation. Good electronics are essential, though I haven't played with speaker cables or interconnects (yet?) to try and alter the sound. My 2.3s are many feet away from any walls, 8' apart and 9' from my ideal listening position: those with narrower, brighter rooms may have more setup problems than I've encountered, but my guess this would apply equally to 2.4 as it's at least as 'bright' to my ears. Both speakers have very little radiating area for their price/size, a 6.5" (cone-diameter) woofer and 2.5" mid, combined with the shallow crossover slopes and huge number of crossover components I feel limit their ultimate SPLs and microdynamic transparency more than say a B&W 804 with larger cones and steeper slopes. But what sonic tradeoffs for time/phase alignment?

I've read all the reviews of both speakers and we all know you gotta try and read between the lines. My take is the 2.4 is better received by the press as a whole than the 2.3, despite its having purely evolutionary tweaks on the same design. But as cinematic_systems points out, in 5yrs technology marches on and lotsa small judicious improvements can change a speaker's character substantially for the better.

Which comes down to the same thing Buda offers. Is the 2.4 worth upgrading over the 2.3? Yes, I feel it's definitely a better speaker that offers more bass, fills in the lower mids, has a more transparent midrange presentation, but doesn't alter the accept-it-or-hate-it upper mids forwardness, and is at least as hot on top as the 2.3. The 2.4 does some significant things a bit better than the 2.3, the 2.3 probably does nothing better than the 2.4, but I think they equally share many of the same attributes and deficits. But let's face it, the speakers sound very similar to each other versus either Thiel to any other brand of speaker.

I haven't figured out how much *I'd* be willing to pay for the upgrade on the used market as I'm off the big-ticket merry-go-round for awhile. If the 2.4s were traded straight up for my 2.3s I'd sure do it, but knowing that there's always better audio components out there, and I remain satisfied with my 2.3's presentation, I'll leave well enough alone for now.

Sorry, I guess I'm getting sucked back into the hifi fray again :-O

"Both speakers have very little radiating area for their price/size, a 6.5" (cone-diameter) woofer and 2.5" mid, combined with the shallow crossover slopes and huge number of crossover components I feel limit their ultimate SPLs and microdynamic transparency"

Yes, my impression is the CS2.4 handles power better than the CS2.3's and is simply better behaved. Which is why I felt I could enjoy it more.

I want to qualify my early comments too, with this adendum (sp -1)

The last long term exposure to the CS2.3 was 2001, but 2000 production models, it is very if not certainly likely that Thiel has continued to improve their coaxial driver as they had from 1998 to 2001 and newer versions of the CS2.3 like a 2002 production model may very well be a fraction different from the CS2.4. So the variations may very well be a function of production time and version. Thiel will continue to improve their products (their right reserved) even if they don't change the model or version number.

Having not heard a CS2.3 for several years on a daily basis, hearing the CS2.4, it was a relief to hear a speaker I could actually listen too. Which is what struck me so black and white on this matter.

I actually had a pair of 2.4s in my room to see if they were much better than my 2.3s(with upgraded drivers). While the 2.4 had a bit better bass they were nearly identical. The dealer insisted on coming over as he remembers the 2.3s as being no where close to the 2.4s. I sat there using the A/B switch from my NAD remote, the speakers were side by side, not the best arrangement but both were equally handicapped, and he was gobsmacked. At one point he said "now that's the 2.4, right?" to which I replied..uh, no, that's the 2.3. Once I pointed out it was easy to tell them apart as the 2.4 was a bit more efficient and, thus, a little louder he started making comments such as "more liquid" for the 2.4. He did, however, agree that they were REALLY close and that I must have a special pair of 2.3s! Right. Anyway, I finally did come across a pair I like better, the Linkwitz Orions so will finally be moving away from Thiel but I will never say a bad thing about them. Great speaker and great company.

Tim McTeague

My Thiel 2.3's were early model, and I know that there was one major change early in the life of that model: an upgrade to the midrange driver that was reputed to smooth out the upper midrange. I can't say for certain that I ever heard a 2.3 with that upgrade.

So, the difference between 2.3 and 2.4 MAY depend substantially on whether the 2.3 has the newer midrange driver.

Art

2.3s started production in early '98 and the woofer was changed after about 400 units were built. The coax driver was changed (small tweaks to reduce resonances and a peak) sometime in 2000, along with a crossover modification to accomodate this. Both these changes are user-upgradeable, though many (most?) of the 2.3s out there came from the factory this way.

The 2.4 coax is quite a bit different than either the original or newer 2.3 coax (or PCS coax for that matter): more open basket due to a much smaller, more powerful magnet structure yielding more power handling and the more open-sounding mids. Apparently more attention paid to further reducing cone resonances, though it looks identical to the 2.3 from outside. Thiel won't allow any 2.4 coaxes to be installed in 2.3s, the 2.4 crossover is set up specifically for the 2.4's new drivers. Though one would think a 2.4 woofer, coax and crossover in a 2.3 would get you 90% of the way to a 2.4...