Thiel Owners

This kind of wrangling of details normally occurs behind the design curtain and the buyer gets what he gets with myriad value judgements / assumptions bundled in the mix. It is not for the faint of heart; the process will lead to critical listening / comparison and then value engineering assessment to assure that the gains are solid / uncompromised and the costs are no more than necessary. Eventually I hope to have upgrade paths for various legacy Thiel products that Rob can supply. We're doing this first trial in view of this supportive group. Thank you, beetle, for jumping in.

Eventually I hope to have upgrade paths for various legacy Thiel products that Rob can supply.

Haha, I can see it now. I'll get my pair dialed-in then you and Rob will come out with a kit for the 2.4s. There is no end to audiophile nervosa!

the buyer gets what he gets with myriad value judgements / assumptions bundled in the mix. It is not for the faint of heart; the process will lead to critical listening / comparison and then value engineering assessment to assure that the gains are solid / uncompromised and the costs are no more than necessary

Just picking the caps for the SE version probably took Jim Thiel and his team many days and weeks, never mind the initial design. Choose worthwhile candidate caps (this is what I'm doing), burn them in for a week or two, conduct careful listening tests/comparisons, probably measurements, too. Being a buyer, not a manufacturer, I don't have the time and money to try multiple combinations. Moreover, manufacturers are *highly* motivated to get the very best sound possible, albeit balanced by cost (except for Wilson and the like for which crazy prices are built into brand expectation).

In my case, my SEs sound superb but I also know there probably are gains to be had with tricked-out XOs. I paid ~$3K for my used pair and I think they sound as good as anything new up to ~15K. What if there is a relatively inexpensive way to make them sound as good as anything new up to $30K?

As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, I think Thiel made some of the best drivers in the business. IMO, the main thing that separated Thiel SQ from that of the very best was attention to the passive parts. Tom Thiel wrote that it wasn't that Jim Thiel was unaware or disbelieving of ultra caps and the like, just that he wanted to balance SQ against cost so that more people could afford his creations. And I am grateful because I am one who can afford Thiels. Not much if they were tweaked like this:
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=5464

I suspect a CS7.2 or CS3.7 with a cost-no-object XO would sound pretty much as good as anything I've heard. But something like that Dueland-capped XO would probably add $20K retail, more than a pair of CS7.2 or CS3.7!

Tom Thiel has been very generous with his knowledge and sdecker shared his successful experience of re-capping his CS2.4s. This is a project I'm confident I can complete and with good results. I will certainly report back on this thread in hopes of helping other DIYers.

This thread is a great example of why brands like Thiel that stay on top of the cost/performance tradeoff are likely to have better products than the cost no object "luxury" brands like Wilson or magico at any price points where they compete.  A lifetime of value judgements and performance oriented engineering vs primarily just putting the most expensive parts in a box made of something exotic is bound to result in much better performance for the money.  

brands like Thiel that stay on top of the cost/performance tradeoff are likely to have better products than the cost no object "luxury" brands

I agree but still wish that Thiel had a full-out assault on SOTA speaker. Not that I could ever hope to afford such a product but it probably would have informed new, cost-effective ways to coax (pun intended) even more performance from the 1s, 2s, and 3s. Maybe Jim Thiel had this in mind (cs7.3?) but left this Earth far too early.

At Parts Connexion, retail pricing for a Clarity SA 15 uF is ~$20 and 33uF is ~$46. *Every* CS2.4 could have had SA caps for, maybe, an extra $200 retail (tbf, I don't know that the SAs were available when the 2.4 was developed). No doubt Jim Thiel had very good reasons for his design decisions and I shouldn't second guess those decisions. But, IMO, an extra $500-2000 retail in better passive parts for the 2s and 3s could have elevated their performance to the next tiers. I'm going to test that speculation!

Pruning a brand niche is a very delicate endeavor. Imagine the confusions that result from differing implementations of various products within a brand. I will share that in the development of the CS5 in the late 80s, I wanted to go farther out on the quality limb and market that product in the $20K market (actually introduced at $9700 / pair.) I believe its ultra implementation would have been more than competitive at $20K. BUT, where does such a move leave the line / other products, niche reputation, etc? Perhaps two quality ranges? etc. etc. etc. As a small company, we couldn't cope with the variables. Toyota marketed their upmarket offerings in the USA as Lexus: same idea: different dealers, different image, different cost/performance ratios.

I have bought some nifty analysis software to guide me in this upgrade thing. I hope to find time to develop some solutions. The learning curve is cumulative, what is learned is applicable to other products. My first, stop is my PowerPoint 1.2s, upgraded via beetlemania's cap direction, coil replacement with legacy Thiel six-9s coils and wire, all in outboard XOs, and vetted with Metric Halo's SpectraFoo analysis software.