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SAT 30K+$$ TONEARM: W O R T H T O H A V E I T ?

http://www.swedishat.com/

That is the everywhere touted and very expensive tonearm. Touted by all professional reviewers and obviously " satisfied " owners ( around 70 of them. ).

Here some reviews:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/swedish-analog-technologies-tonearm

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/06/sat-swedish-analog-technologies-tonearm.html

http://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/main/press/AirForce%20III_SAT_HiFi+_0817.pdf

and you can look elsewhere the TAS one and others.

Obviously that the proudly owners started to buy the tonearm because those reviews and trhough audio shows but mainly for the " great " reviews.

It was ranked class A in Stereophile and I know are coming two new models that inludes a 12" tonearm.

Other than the very high price I never was interested on the tonearm design due that is totally out of my budget. Its price cost what a decent whole audio system cost.

Anyway, a few months ago in an other analog forum and through a TT review the SAT appeared in that discussion thread and was here when I decided to analize this regarded tonearm design where I found out that those 30K+ dollars are a true money lost and does not matters of what reviewers and owners think about where there are not clear facts all of them are extremely satisfied with the SAT.



Let me explain a little why I said that through my post to MF:


"""""""

from your Stereophile review the SAT specs are as follows: P2S: 212.2mm, overhang: 22.8mm, offset angle 26.10° with an effective length: 235mm.


Those numbers tell us that you are listening ( with any cartridge. ) way higher distortion levels, that you just do not detected even today, against almost any other tonearm/cartridge combination.


Obviously that the SAT needs a dedicated protractor to make the cartridge/tonearm set up but we have to analize what those specs/numbers has to say:

the SAT maximum traking error is a really high: 3.09° when in a normal ( Jelco or Ortofon. ) 235m Effective Length tonearm Löfgren A alignment ( IEC standard. ) is only: 1.84°

the SAT maximum distortion % level is: 2.67 when in that normal tonearm only 0.633

the SAT average RMS % distortion is: 0.616 when in normal tonearm only :
0.412 ( Löfgren B even lower: 0.37 ).

All those makes that the linnear offset in the SAT be 10mm longer than in a normal tonearm ! !

All those are facts and you or Mr. Gomez can’t do nothing to change it. Pure mathematics reality.

You posted in that review: """ Marc Gomez has chosen null points of 80 and 126mm instead of the more commonly used 66 and 121mm. """

that’s a deep misunderstood on tonearm/cartridge alignment input/output calulations in the overall equations used for that alignment:

NULL POINTS WERE NOT CHOOSED BY MR. GOMEZ BUT ARE PART OF THE OUTPUT DATA ON THOSE ALIGNMENTS CALCULATIONS.

In the same is not true your statement: """ the more commonly used 66 and 121mm. """

that " commonly " just does not exist and only depends of the standard choosed for the calculations.

There are several other things in that SAT design that not only are not orthodox but that has a negative influence in what we are listening it:

he said that the tonearm owner can change the bearing friction levels and this characteristics could tell to you that’s a " good thing " but it’s not but all the way the opposite because makes not a fully 100% steady bearings.

Ask you a question?: why the best top cartridges use cantilevers of boron and not carbon fiber, it does not matters that laminated carbon fiber the SAT has.

Carbon fiber is way resonant no matter what. In the past existed cartridges with CF cantilever and sounds inferior to the boron ones. ....................................................................................................................................................................... the designer was and is proud that the tonearm self resonance happens at around 2.8khz, go figure ! ! !. It happens way inside the human been frequency range instead to stays out of that frequency range. """"



Dear friends and owners of the SAT: way before the mounted cartridge on it hits the very first LP groove and against any other vintage or today tonearm you have way higher distortions that per sé preclude you can listen a real and true top quality level performance and does not matters the audio system you own.


What we can listen through the SAT is an inferior quality performance levels with higher distortions. Obviously that all reviewers and owners like those heavy distortions but that does not means they are rigth because and with all respect all of them are wrong.


Some one send the link of what I posted to the SAT designer and latter on ( I do not knew he read my post. ) I ask for him for the information about the effective mass of the SAT. He gave me a " rude " answer and did not disclose that information that in reallity was not important in that moment.



I have to say that at least two professional reviewers bougth the SAT tonearm., both with the Continnum/Cobra TT/tonearm. At least one of them say the SAT outperforms the Cobra one ( maybe both, who knows why bougth it the other reviewer. )

The credentials of the SAT designer are impecable and really impressive ones but no single of those credentials speaks about audio and certainly not on analog audio.

He is a true " roockie " enthusiast ( and I say it with respect.) and obviously that is welcomed in the high-end " arena/area/ring " where all of us are learning at each single day. Any one that’s marketing an audio item has a true merit and this is not under discussion: SAT designer has his own merit for that.

You that are reading this thread permit me to ask: what do you think, overall, about?, at the end audiophiles are the ones that has the last " word " or should be that way.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.






Ag insider logo xs@2xrauliruegas
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rauliruegas OP
13,112 posts
 
Dear @dsholl1 :  """  why is it so important to you that you make them aware that they are not true audiophiles?  """

Now I'm really worry about. If you can think that then the SAT owners did it too and my intentions on the whole subject are far away to " blame " directly or inderectly to all those 70 gentlemans and I never intented to make them aware " they are not audiophiles " because I know for sure they all are true audiophiles and not only whealty people.

If that is what any one or all those 70 gentlemans think when read this thread please accept my humble apologies to all of you.

Problem is that English language is not my native one and I have a lot of vocabulary and gramatical limitations. Sorry for that.

Btw, this main subjects in this thread is more a critic to one of the main parts of the AHEE where we all belongs:

the SAT " stampede " was and is under the command of the tonearm designer and I like and want to think that he did it in good shape and due to his personal believes and not only to make money.
I'm not questioning his credentials he showed/writes in his site but more that he has not the expertise levels in audio analog that he showed in the other site areas and the tonearm anomalies confirms that fact.

In the other side the first and second line on that SAT " stampede " was commanded by the main parts of the AHEE that are the professional reviewers and audio sellers/distributors and here is where belongs all the responsability of the no-sense " stampede " and it's here where I'm questioning in deep way because we audiophiles/customers are the ones from all of them receives our money: all of us pay for a responsable work and all of them ( in this SAT regards. ) just falls in a dark and " corrupted " hole:

it's incredible that no single reviewer and I mean it never made it for his self ( just by curiosity ! ) the questions: which the tracking error and tracking distortions in the SAT with its dedicated kind of alignment?  which anti skate level needs the tonearm for its cartridge  set up? which advantages or disadvantages has that prefered designer VTF lower cartridge/tonearm set up?  stylus tip wear levels? centered coils? LP grooves wear level?

because all those questions are their minimal responsabilities for a reviewer that appreciated him self as a professional reviewer. This is what I'm questioning and as an analog audio customer I have/own the rigth to ask all of them and waiting for a precise and clear answers of their " actions " or " not actions ".

As is proved in this thread and elsewhere exist several anomalies in that tonearm design and designer preferences ( that insist is not the designer culprit because he has not experience levels. ). 

Again, before any cartridge mounted in the tonearm already develops higher distortions for that dedicated kind of alignment choosed and additional skating and other faults because the designer preferences on VTF set up.

The sellers/distributors? they can't talk because with his " mouth closed " is how they took the money from customers with this tonearm.

We have to remember that ignorance and mis-information is a kind of corruption and that's why I talk of " corrupted AHEE ".

Were all of them whom commanded the " stampede " and the 70 gentlemans the " victims " of that " no reasons stampede ".

Was in favor of the 70 audiophiles like @tli  or @jareko  that I gave my advise to make tests in their system using Löfgren alignment inside the IEC standards and with its respective P2S that's way different from the designer tonearm alignment. It has/must be to sounds/performs good not as @tli found out: " dim and flat ".

Overall that's why I losted my trust in the AHEE and that's why I always take/took my audio actions thinking " out of the box ". From some years now there is no single audio issue where any one of us can learns inside  the box/AHEE.

Pity but is a shame of reality.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

 
parrotbee
103 posts
 
Raul - all good and well talking theory - but have you heard an SAT?

If it's a cost/value vs performance question - I agree I think it is a waste of money. We know a 'law of demising returns' kicks in, but clearly the SAT somehow does have those further returns. 

People who have the coin, having optimised everything else are always in pursuit of that tiny bit extra - I reckon things like those harmonix record pucks fall into the same category of adding those 'last touches'.

If I was in the market for a cost no object tonearm it would have to be a parallel tracker - Schroeder LT, Thales, Kuzma Airline... As much as I love vinyl - the geometry issue is an achilles heal with nearly all tangential arms
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cleeds
6,040 posts
 
parrotbee
...  As much as I love vinyl - the geometry issue is an achilles heal with nearly all tangential arms
You meant pivoted arms, not tangential, correct?
Many linear trackers fail to maintain tangency, btw, especially those that rely on a servo mechanism.
parrotbee
103 posts
 
LOL - brain fade typing moment - yes - you have guessed right - pivoted arms

I only have pivoted arms - my only parallel arm is on a B and O 4002 that I am restoring to put in my wifes' downstairs AV system - I know I digress from the OP thread about the SAT arm, but Tim Jarman at HiFi News explained that the B & O carts unlike any other cartridges were designed to go into a parallel tracking arm, and contrary to snobish Audiophile beliefs the B&O's were in fact superb turntables that really were a 'complete approach' that delivered a very good sound.
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rauliruegas OP
13,112 posts
 
Dear @parrotbee : No, I don't heard it yet.

"""  clearly the SAT somehow does have those further returns.
People who have the coin, having optimised everything else are always in pursuit of that tiny bit extra - """

everything has that " returns ". The main subject here is that even if we like what we are lisetning through an item like this what we like is something that's " severe " faulty by design. As if was made in on purpose.
Why something " faulty " could makes  that we like it?.

Well, first because is a new listening experience that sounds different of what we are more or less accustom to. Second, because we already bougth it and with a so high price tag we have to convince our self that is excellent. Third, because all ignorant reviewers said is excellent, so it " has to be ".  Fourth, whatever you want to say.

The real issue here is not if we like it or not but that the SAT alignment is totally wrong about the distortions generated against almost any other pivoted tonearm, even against Stevenson A alignment.

What is incredible and bording in the ridicolous is that in all the reviews made it in the audio magazines made it by in " theory " proffesional analog experts no one of them made it what a gentleman here who is a SAT's owner did it: he tested with a different kind of alignment.

That gentleman is @tli . He posted that did not like it what he listen and the main reason was ( maybe I'm wrong. @tli can tell us. ) because he made the different alignment tests with the same P2S distance.
That's why I recomended him and other owners to intent new tests with the rigth different alignment parameters and I gave to all of them. 

If the SAT is so good pivoted tonearm then makes no sense that with way lower tracking error and distortion levels with the different alignment can't performs way better. One thing is for sure can't performs bad.

Btw, one of those professional reviewers ( and that's why I speak of corrupted AHEE. ) followed with the SAT a different " protocol " that what he showed with other tonearms under review.

One of his latest reviews was a TT that comes designed with its own tonearm and he received with a top LOMC cartridge mounted and previously aligned.
Well, before he test it as the manufacturer gave to him  his first move was ( with out reason. ) to change the cartridge/tonearm alignment ! ! ! and through his SAT review time he never did it.
Even he bougth the SAT and did not do it as @tli did it whom is not a " professional reviewer but an audiophile as you or me ! ! 

Not only that,  those reviewers already know the SAT alignment " problem " and no one of them made it till now any comment to their readers but neither the SAT manufacturer or its dealers.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

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