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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


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michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi bdp24

Thanks for jumping in. What setup do you have? We have several drum kits at the shop. Maybe some time you can hook up with one of the musicians here and talk tuning vs tension in real time.

One thing cool about my stereo stores is that we had studios setup at the locations so local musicians and recording artist could hang out with us. nothing like having discussions while actually doing what you are talking about.

One thing though just as a point of reference. When I was on tour I never had a musician or road tech tell me to "tension" up the drum kit. They told me to "tune" up the kit. Also the same was true when working with orchestras and drum lines. So, I know your trying to make a point but maybe you should take that up with drummers! My instrument is African drums btw so the tuning on them is a stretching and curing process.

thanks for you view point, I'll actually be meeting with some folks this weekend and will ask them about the terms they use and get back to you if you would like

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

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michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Geoff

"Michael, The “fundamental forces” and the interaction of the Earth’s forces sound like interesting topics. Can you expound on what you mean? What are we talking about here?"

Yep, I think this deserves it's own thread. I also think this is an area of audio in which you shine.

here's the wiki

"Fundamental interactions, also known as fundamental forces, are the interactions in physical systems that do not appear to be reducible to more basic interactions. There are four conventionally accepted fundamental interactions—gravitational, electromagnetic, strong nuclear, and weak nuclear. Each one is understood as the dynamics of a field."

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

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michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Iwal22

Good post!

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shadorne
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@bdp24

+1 Drum set are tuned in a different way to every other instrument. It is extremely complex. Being able to get the right sound for the room or venue is an art.

The only way to learn to “tune” a drum set is to tune a drum set so many times that you train your ears to know what to adjust.

I have a Pearl reference kit and it is amazing for large venues but too resonant for a practice room. I have found Evans controlled resonance heads along with Evans ringed batters to work best for this kit in a small room. I find Evans dry heads with perforations work for the snare is a small room.

I have a drum drum tuner also but frankly by ear is the best and fastest.

Trick is

1) Choice of heads (the sound of the stick hitting the head is very important as well as longevity of the skin) Drum heads have an incredible range of sounds.
2) tuning to the drum shell
3) relative tension between the heads - create down pitch or up pitch and decay rate ( tuning both heads to each other and to the shell results in longest sustain)
4) Generally Major thirds or descending fourths works as a starting point.

Snare tuning is a dark magic art that requires a decade or more of training.

Finally - what the drummer hears from the throne is very different from what is projected to a listener.

Drum set tuning is the most difficult instrument to “tune”.

Cymbals are just as complex - choosing those is also an art.

The complex harmonics of drums mean that drums are the most important instrument to get right in order for a band to sound good.

It gets much worse for the drummer....how you hit the heads and how much rebound you allow the stick can change the tonal character of the sound too - not only loudness.

michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

uberwaltz said

"MG
Yes tbh I am just about in heaven with my system for sure
I can and do sit and listen for 5, 5 or more hours at a time with no fatigue or desire to stop the music flowing.
Twas not always that way of course, I have had the same room for 11 years and when I think back to what I started with in their and where I am now.
The biggest mover was the Lyngdorf 2170
that basically did all the room tuning I need for me.
Not much more I need to achieve and changes I make now are just because I feel like it or the desire to "upgrade" like new cartridges.
So yes ring that bell!"

_________________________________

This for sure is one of the options for the now and for the future as innovations keep moving forward. I have been talking with designers who are working on the audio hologram. One of them is using my Tunable Room as the physical adjustment space. It’s pretty fascinating to see into the future of the hobby. It’s going to be so cool when the AV holograms come out and as I have been pushing for, I would like to see the licensing able to be marketed.

I don’t want to get ahead of myself or the industry, but someday you will be able (hopefully) to download the original master yourself and plug it into your hologram device. At that time you will see and hear the recorded code. Unfortunately the visual will not be going back to recordings that haven’t had the AV codes applied, but I bet even those will be somehow simulated with new visual formats remade for that particular piece of music to new visuals. But recordings being done now in the hologram version are crazy cool.

This is one of the reasons I tell folks, don’t down play the stereo soundstage, because the future of audio and visual is all about the soundstage. Now that we have files the innovative part of this industry is moving at lightening speed. Those debates on real soundstages probably won’t even be around a few short years from now.

I’ll let you know if I get time to pickup a Lyngdorf 2170. I've had my eye on a potential prototype unit but maybe I should play with the Lyngdorf too. I'm more into the physical tuning but, playing is the name of the game.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

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