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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
glupson
7,842 posts
 
trelja,

Sadly, that's always been how a lot of folks set up their loudspeakers.
This is certainly true, but the biggest part of that is that it is inconvenient to walk around the speakers that are in the middle of the room, or something like that. Perfect position may not always be the livable-with one. There comes a trade-off. I am sure that modest systems may outperform more expensive ones when everything is aligned well, but I would expect that, if both are placed where they are allowed to be placed, expensive ones will still be better. Of course, I have no examples to provide, but simply have that feeling based on my own very limited experience. Strangely so, in my own room, speakers really did not have that much difference when moved away from the walls and the trade-off was clearly on the side of "closer to the wall".

I wonder how many people who read these threads (not only this one) have an actual dedicated listening room. It must be a good number. Putting your music reproduction system in the living room may not allow for perfect positioning and tweaking/tuning, but adds the benefit of having it close to ears. That may be good enough of a proposition to some. If I am correct that more expensive system under the same circumstances will still outperform more expensive one, in some areas it may end up being cheaper investing more in equipment than in another room. A person just has to accept that the system is not playing to the full potential which, I am aware of that, may drive many people who visit Audiogon up the wall.

Along the lines of speaker positioning, some speaker manufacturers, not the shabbiest ones at that, proudly display speakers on their websites right next to the wall or really close to it. There are even those placed right in front of the glass wall. Check Dynaudio and Dali websites for such examples.
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Trelja

Yep, there are so many great speakers out there in that modest price range that sound great against the walls, and then you walk into a friends house and it's a heartbreak, cause you know what's going to happen when they turn the system on.

That gets back to the OP. Who was the guy who told this guy it's ok to throw that speaker in a room that hasn't a prayer of gelling with the speaker. It's not the speaker designer's fault and it's not the end users fault, but somewhere in the chain of that research and purchase something went horribly wrong. Now he's got a very expensive work of art and unless he does something drastic he'll never get to enjoy their magic.

Obviously there are going to be bad designs out there. But I'm sure there's that perfect setup that the designer had in mind where the speaker sings with the music the designer used to build his sound with.

I get the after calls, lots of them, where the listener is stuck "what do I do now". It's not a fun time for them, unless the system is nothing more than a trophy to start with. I have built walls ontop of walls and floors ontop of floors to help as much as can be, but it makes you just sick to hear a mismatch, and you know someone in the loop was giving "talk" and not walking them through the process properly.

There's a little part of all of us who walk, when we read an obvious mismatch in the making. But I think that's why we need to keep pushing to raise the bar on advice. It's not about the person who comes up wanting to be known as an authority, it's about our friends who deserve to have their dream system, dream match, dream music and the ability to make everything they want to hear a success. Good post!

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

theaudiotweak
2,801 posts
 
Walk but no talk. Just asking was this you too? What happened in Nasville? 
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/8nerve/8nerve.html
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi glupson

There's a lot of DIY designs being done, I think that's a smart move for a lot of folks. And then there's a lot of custom designing going on which is maybe even better.

If I was a start from scratch client, getting into the hobby right now, I wouldn't spring for a big purchase. I would buy a simple system and learn my space. The listener paradigm is changing and has changed quite a bit. Systems don't have to cost the big bucks anymore.

Do you have any idea how many people are getting into the hobby? Groves and groves. They're not HEA people they are regular folks doing basic systems. I have one to do this week where I'm helping some folks out. Front speakers, rear speakers, sub, receiver and source. It will sound great, as great as any HEA system (maybe better) that hasn't been setup well.

It's a very good time to be into stereos. These speaker sub combos are fantastic to work with. They're really very easy to setup and they're out of the way. Next move up for those who have a little flexibility in their rooms, tons of good speakers old and new.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

theaudiotweak
2,801 posts
 
No talk just walk....away...from the questions.
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