Thiel Owners

I am looking to improve highs which sometimes lack crystal clear clarity, I think the technical term is "tizzyness?" Also would like to improve the vocal/midranges, make these warmer and deeper. What should my next upgrade be?

Upgrade the crossovers!

Seriously, this will be your best bang-for-the-buck move and I imagine you will be very happy with the result. Tom Thiel has an idea regarding “tizzyness” and Thiel’s reputation, among some, for being bright despite the ruler flat measurements. Unfortunately for you, Tom is not currently planning an upgrade kit for CS2.3, partly because of lack of demand for that model (as measured by responses in this thread). But maybe your need will spur him?

If you can’t wait for a kit that may or may not ever come, you can start your own upgrade. I have replaced the OEM resistors in my CS2.4 SEs to notable improvement with Mills MRA-12s. Highly recommended. I will build entirely new boards later this summer/early fall, replacing all parts. My SEs are something of a test mule for Tom’s kit development.

Tom may chime in with some ideas for you but feel free to PM me if you want more details about capacitor choices. The CS2.3 boards are roughly similar to those in my 2.4s, a bit simpler, even. The main unknown, for me, is how much room you have to replace the 100uF electrolytics with film caps. You can probably otherwise directly replace the extant caps and resistors with higher quality parts.

The result should be amelioration, if not complete removal, of the "tizzyness" and notably enhanced clarity and transparency. Jim Thiel engineered some superb drivers - these merit higher quality passive parts!

hi thosb and welcome.   forgive the shameless sales pitch but you might want to consider updating your speakers as they have come along way since the 2.3's and earlier Thiels could be a bit tizzy.   i have owned four generations of  the 2 series since the mid 80's,  but am now selling my wonderful pair of 2.7's which are awesome.  why am i selling them?  Because i just acquired a pair of 3.7's.  otherwise they would be with me for years.   if that is out of your reach dollar wise,  you might want to consider the 2.4's as they are a nice step up from the 2.3's.   welcome to audioland where everyday is made better by playing music we love.

Thosb, As Beetle mentioned, the 2.3 is not a front line candidate because more interested folks have 2.4s which have more evolved drivers. But 2.3s have potential and everything we are learning on other models applies to the 2.3. If you are so inclined, we could help you create a pair of well hot-rodded 2.3s that will definitely address the "tizziness / brightness" to a significant degree. 

Be aware that your room has a significant issue of the length being close to double the width. Your standing waves and timing reflections are likely the significant limitation to performance. Diffusion in the corners will help. If possible, consider orienting on an axis not parallel with any wall to spread out early reflections.

Welcome.

This is really a question for tomthiel -

Tom, I have a four speaker 3.5 setup (used to be five).  An Accupahse AC-2 moving coil through a Marcof PPA2 headamp and an Oppo 105 through an updated Audio Research SP-6A for the front channels and Audionics BT-2 for the rears.  Four Outlaw M200 monoblocks feed the Thiels.

I love the accurate spectral balance of the 3.5's, which is why I am loath to give them up.  But I also have a pair of 2.2's in another room driven by a Counterpoint SA-1000 through an Adcom 5300, and this combo is definitely more transparent.

My question - are we ever going to get a "hot-rodded" audiophile version of the 3.5 cross-overs?  I've felt all along that the crossovers perform a subtle "masking" of transparency, and today I am even more convinced.  I'd gladly pay for an upgrade as a preference over having to trade up my speakers.

Harry, I have looked long and hard at which models to hot-rod. My choices center on Thiel-developed drivers and a long life horizon going forward. Although the 3.5 was a defining product in its time, it doesn't check enough boxes. The drivers are modifications of commercial units with little of Thiel's proprietary magnetics or cone materials and geometry. Those drivers are becoming obsolete. Same can be said for the equalizer. Redevelopment of a product is a substantial undertaking requiring custom component development and re-voicing via systematic measurement and listening, like when a new product is developed. I expect the results to be worthwhile.

The first-tier models are the PowerPoint1.2, CS1.6, CS2 2, 2.4 and 3.6. Next round includes the 2.7, 3.7, CS6 and 7.2 - in order of expressed interest and personal time availability. First tier hopes to debut before year's end. 

I agree with your "masking" comment, which can be attributed to various factors. Among them is the presence of electrolytic capacitors in the signal path which are at or nearing their end of life expectancy. Since you love the speakers and if you or someone you know is capable, I believe you can make a great improvement yourself by removing the crossovers and replacing the electrolytic caps and resistors with like-values. (Your coils, wire and layout are excellent.) If that prospect interests you, I can point you to brands and sources which have emerged from our upgrade project research. You are welcome to send a PM to explore this avenue.