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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
theaudiotweak
We also have a resulting tuning method though when implemented, it is stasis by material, shape and understanding of energy flow and direction. The only change that may occurr is when we increase our understanding of shaped materials and offer them to the public to install if they wish. Tom

>>>>So, let me get this straight. You guys apparently have a mission statement and standard operating procedure to let the vibrations flow freely, right? And this mission statement and SOP obviously precludes the use of vibration isolation, right? In fact, if I can be so bold, you guys actually believe that vibration isolation is not (rpt not) possible, correct me if I’m wrong.

So, are you guys claiming a scientific conspiracy of massive proportions that the project to detect and observe gravity waves LIGO uses a complex and comprehensive system of vibration isolation (they say is) required to isolate and stabilize the optics and other critical parts of the experiment from extremely low frequency vibration? If so, surely you jest. 😀 in fact it was the development of advanced vibration isolation systems that finally led to the observation of gravity waves from an ancient merger of black holes a couple of years ago.

Everyone and his brother knows shape is an important aspect of isolation and energy control. That is why the Super DH (Diamond Hardness) Cone is superior in performance to the Jumbo DH cone which is the same basic size but slightly different shape. We’ve known that for more than 20 years, probably more than 25 years.

Is this thread now suddenly the Clash of the Tuning titans?

geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
theaudiotweak
Was the nail made of a steel alloy or something more musically satisfying like a brass screw. Was the screw head then painted over and filled in with Total Contact. My choice. Tom

>>>>Not sure I go along with your detective work. Brass is rather low on my list of preferred materials for audio applications. Notice the correlation of preferrability to hardness.

from best to worst,

Diamonds
NASA grade diamond hardness ceramics
Tempered High Carbon steel
Aluminum
Carbon Fiber
Brass

This is not to say other materials can be very good when used as platforms, Top plates for isolation stands, that sort of thing, but the key characteristic is usually hardness. Hardness on the Moh scale of hardness. So, this is where we kind of agree, since very hard materials allow the energy to escape the bounds of the system, especially in isolation systems.

What I propose is a comprehensive approach using BOTH energy management employing damping plus hard materials along with vibration isolation. For example the circuit boards must be isolated from the transformer and the CD transport must be damped. Just to name two. The transformer can also be removed and relocated elesewhere which is what I think MG does sometimes. This comprehensive plan of attack will ALWAYS produce the very best results. And doesn’t require constant attention and Tuning.

geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
jf47t, he’s like a Gila monster. Once his jaws clamp down on you you’ll never be able to get him off. Anyone have a Jaws of Life handy? 
geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
prof

jf47t,

1. If you are honest.

And

2. If the techniques you and MG espouse are sound.....

>>>>Oh, please. I know for a fact they are honest, trustworthy, clean, brave and reverent. Go back and read Zen and the Art of Debunkery some more.

When did you stop beating your wife?

glupson
7,842 posts
 

jf47t,


I have no friends here, just for the record, and it is great that people went to Tuneland and enjoy it. Maybe some other threads there are more into "walking", but that one with pictures is not. In fact, posts there are very strange, to say the least. Even approaching it with very open mind, it does read like nothing more than self-praising form of poetry. People have different styles of writing and that is fine, but content is missing on that thread. Pictures are valuable, though, despite them being only teasers.


To clarify, your inaccurate rewrite of my sentence...

glupson says Please Please don’t visit TuneLand and then he asks a direct question of TuneLand LOL


has changed the meaning of what I wrote and which was...

Please do not direct people from here to Tuneland

Nice try, but still a feeble attempt to tune it your way.

I did go to Tuneland and I will probably observe it some more. I will also recommend it to other people I know who may find it interesting, even if it may be just for their amusement. What I meant was that you do not advertise it that strongly to the people on this thread as, no matter how hard you try to explain that some have migrated there, the posters here seem to be much more exact and their presence on Tuneland would dilute Tuneland itself. In short, just as what I recommended to you after your initial posts about Michael Green, you may not want to work too hard. It becomes grotesque. You have improved since then and you might have noticed that nobody is ridiculing your way of talking about Michael anymore. I understand that public relations may not be your strongest quality so I thought I might try to help. Take it or leave it. Thank you will suffice.


As far as my questions about things I saw on Tuneland go, they were a pure curiosity as it all seems way out of ordinary. They may not have an answer (orange vs. white outlet, wires directly stuck in the outlet, modifications to the receiver, maybe something else that I forgot), but they remain questions.


If you look at two or three of geoffkait's posts above, he did bring something valuable to this thread. We may agree or disagree with it in the end, but there are statements that include how, why, what, etc. If anyone responds to them with contra-argument, it will be called a discussion. LOL-ing brings nothing but a shrug of the shoulders aimed at the LOL-er..


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