Help me pick a phono, pre and cart

@atmasphere   Just a question to help my understanding of cartridge motor operation and loading.  Only seeking information from one who knows....

Does cartridge loading impact motor operation, cartridge compliance, frequency response or other factors in playback?  Or are these factors too insignificant to be considered when using a well-designed phono stage?  

I don't mind if your answer is very detailed. 

Thanks in advance,

Bill 

@bpoletti It has to, Ohm's Law and such.

How much it does so is not as well researched, but I've seen a good number of audiophiles do loading by ear- essentially dialing out brightness by using a potentiometer as the loading resistor and when they felt they had it right, replaced the pot with a fixed value. I've done this myself.

But loading does not affect the output of a LOMC cartridge insofar as the coil is concerned- this is because the inductance is so low that it basically doesn't ring at audio frequencies. I know this from having passed squarewaves through such cartridges and observing the effect of the cartridge coils on an oscilloscope (BTW this is not for the faint of heart- one screwup and you could degauss the magnet or damage the coil).

So there are really only two explanations for why loading kills brightness, and stopping the ringing in the cartridge is not one of them (although in high output MM cartridges loading does affect the cartridge at audio frequencies). The two explanations are:1) the preamp is bright due to RFI; removing the RFI corrects the problem2) the cartridge is less able to respond to high frequencies due to the extra work it has to do.
The problem with the first explanation is that by varying the load, you can vary the brightness like a tone control. It should be that once the load has killed the RF resonance, that the preamp is OK. However, the peak that we are concerned about is a good 30db higher than that of the signal, and by detuning it only a little it can still have an effect. So the loading, if variable, should have a slight tone control effect. But you can load the cartridge so that its too dull... although I find that such might also just result in reduced output- a lot depends on the individual cartridge.

The problem with the second explanation is that its too disturbing. Once the RF resonance is killed, by decreasing the load value even further, we can still hear that highs are being decreased with *some* cartridges. This does suggest that the cartridge itself is becoming stiffer and less able to respond to higher frequencies. It may also mean that it does not track as well in some arms, that depending on the effective mass and resulting mechanical resonance which has been changed by the electrical loading.

IMO, this topic deserves more attention, since one of the main complaints against vinyl is ticks and pops, and one of the other complaints is the nuance required to get a proper setup. Both would be made easier if there were more light on this subject.

@atmasphere    Thank you. 

I'm using a Herron VTPH-2a (big surprise to everyone, eh?) with no loading.  I have not experienced any change in the AT cartridges' performance run in that unit.  

Dear @sbank   and audiophiles: I don't know why you gave so long answer when I only ask for a " yes or no ", anyway thank's.

First think I have to tell you is that I already gave an specific SS advise to @jetson   and the whys about and even advise for specific cartridges and that's all.
Was not me whom started the SS/tube dialogue but @bpoletti   and latter that manufacturer bu$$ine$$s man and I need to give a wide explanation because one of them even implicated I'm a lier or told that I'm what in true I'm not.

First that all and no matter what a tube is a tube and nothing can change its heavy limitations and if the today designs improved well the SS too, so this argument that I don't know why you used in your post is totally useless with out sense to me.

The extreme superiority of well designed SS units over any tube design is obvious if you know about MUSIC and if take in count that we live not in the 50's or 60's but in 2018 where not only SS designs but digital technology grow up order of magnitudes for the better.
 I want to remember you and let know to other gentlemans what a very " old " SS design can do even today. You participated on that. Here are really interesting links about, interesting because the ones that always attack me just can't understand what I'm talking about because my overall audio and MUSIC experiences are way different from them and this include any manufacturer and proffesional reviewers:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150


this thread came from Andrew in Georgia with our very first design in my first trip to USA.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326185#3261...



this is the second owner of that unit. He owns very good system and had a noise problem with, read about.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326188#3261...


I visited twice this gentleman in Houston, second time was with the Essential 3160.
Please take a look of the system items all these gentlemans own.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326191#3261...


this gentleman was invited by Doug at his place.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326196#3261...

I want to say that till what we can read on those links the cartridges where all LOMC ones: Transfiguration, Colibri, ZYX Universe , Clearaudio and Titan the second time I was with Fred. Many other cartridges follows as the Lyra Olympos, My Sonic Labs, Myabi, Benz Micro, etc, etc..


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326211#3262...



that was the 3150 today my unit is an up-dated one and I can call it: 3190..



https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326226#3262...



https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-j-r-essential-essential-3160-preamplifier



this UK gentleman was the first owner of our unit.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326248#3262...


this gentleman is a music player, speaker designer and tube designer too.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326250#3262...


great system he own, cartridge the XV-1s.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326251#3262...Audiogon Discussion Forumforum.audiogon.comHere are my comments on the listening session I had with Raul and his Essential 3150 Full Function Preamplifier.Firstly, I would like to thank Raul. He ...


he is a player of a very well regarded Mexican Symphonic Orchestra, a great young gentleman as all the ones I had the luck to meet on those East/West USA coast trips..


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326259#3262...


this was in the west USA coast. This gentleman with the top of the line Wavac/Vac tube units and several top cartridges.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326270#3262...


well, Spencer as all the other gentlemans is a great hostess. At his place the very first moment that we were hearing/listening the Essential 3150 there were other two gentlemans, one of them was Joe  ( the owner of the system where those 40-50 audiophiles attend as part of the club Spencer talks. ) , whom knew very well the Spencer's audio system, at the first moment that the first notes of the LP came out from the speakers he approached to one of my ears and told me " Raul you are a genius ". Obviously I'm not.

The day in Joe's place with all those club members was a great experience for all of us and not only because the Essential 3150 performance but because Lloyd Walwer was invited to that special session. Joe is a Walker customer through his TT. Very good system and not only for the TT but those great Kharma speakers.

Lloyds was part of that " chorus line " Spencer refered and I remember that before some one introduce me with him Joe ask Lloyd something like " what do you think about, on what he was listening ? " and he only made a sign with his hand up: " spot on ". 
I think some way or the other all in that session learned a lot because almost the 100% of the people were tube lovers where our unit was an intruder.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326272#3262...


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326231#3262...

I was twice with Albert in different times. The first time I remember very clear that he was loading his LOMC cartridge ( I think the Myabi. ) at around 400 ohms-500 ohms through his Aesthetix I/O and I told him that the quality performance for that cartridge was not up to what the cartridge can shows when loaded correctly. We play it in the Essential at 100 ohms and suddenly " ligths on ".

With him I had the opportunity to meet part of his audio group and a Dagogo reviewer.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/our-home-system-how-good-it-is


I was too in Denver at Tom place whom is the Galibier TT designer/manufacturer, great audiophile gentleman.


I have to say that I think that only @pryso was using a non LOMC cartridge and if I remember was Grado one. 

As I told I was an " intruder " with all those gentlemans because almost all were or are tube audiophiles and our unit is a full SS.

We did not made a shoot-out with any of those tube/hybrid electronics but only against a Dartzeel full fuction phonolinepreamp and this was in the San Diego area and yes the Essential outperformed it.

Here in San Diego where I was invited to a presentation in a big audio show rooms of one of the main audio distributors in the area and attend at least 30 audiophiles maybe 40. What a great time with and was a very good experience for those tube people.

Btw, our Essential unit accross those trips always was connected and listened " just " after the arrive of fligths or long run roads over different places and these means that never took the time for the unit been in rest for some time after the flight/road and temperature changes from snow to 40° celcius  and the unit always shows its quality performance level. This kind of circuit stability speaks for its self.

All cartridges were loaded at 100-150 ohms ( no exception. ) and we did't care about capacitance or the like. Our unit " knows " what to does. Only bad designs has troubles, not ours.


@sbank in your post you try to " diminish " your speakers about bass range I can't understand for sure why other than trying to dimish the Essential in that frequency range but all over those links our unit was connected in full range and even with subwoofers audio systems and in all shows it its quality performance levels.

Btw, @bpoletti posted about harsh sound from SS electronics and the bu$sine$$ man on brigthness with and I have to say that in the past I talk exactly in the same way till I learned how MUSIC sounds live at near field position where we can listen that harsh/brigthness qualities.
So if in our each one home audio system we do not listen those qualities that are inherent to the live MUSIC then we are listening a way colored system/room presentation that's not truer to the recording.


"""  Raul is a digital aficionado. He’s not into vinyl.."""


as always spreading lies and nothing else and a person that spreads liers is a dishonest person it does not matters if for ignorance or on purpose.

In no one of all those places I visited we only listened LPs not a single CD. Spencer knows that but I don't want to ask him to attest about but I want to disturb a gentleman that came several times to my place:

@cardani, please tell us if in any single of the times you were at my place you listenede to a single digital medium. Thank's in advance.


"""  Neither are there any solid state phono sections with response to DC;  """

another lie from the same dishonest person:

http://www.spectralaudio.com/dmc-20.htm

http://www.spectralaudio.com/dmc-20spec.htm

and it's not the only SS electronics that shows that DC bandwindth other than our Essential.


"""  With regards to bass and highs, tubes can go from DC to many MHz  """

I never talk or posted about bandwindth but only frequency extremes where tubes can't handle in the rigth way, only well designed SS electronics can. We have to remember that the main target is to stay truer to the recording that means nearest to the live music to what the recording microhones pick up. Tube and SS are way way different in those regards, tubes for the worst and SS for the better. Facts are facts and no one can change it even with dishonest lies.


"""  bandwidth from 1Hz to 100KHz, with bandwidth intentionally limited to prevent damage to tweeters from RFI..."""


another on purpose lie because as the Spectral or our Essential any well designed electronics can goes to Mhz with out problem but the designer must have the knowledge to design it, knowledge and skills how to do it.


more lies:

"""  nor does the RIAA spec past 20KHz; so many phono sections, solid state included, """"""

these are RIAA eq. of SS measurements:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/104284617601331669309/album/AF1QipPGwVfiWSHynlELSEYgXBVdyx1X8IKa...


and look the outstanding measurement of same RIAA in our Essential:


https://get.google.com/albumarchive/104284617601331669309/album/AF1QipMFuJ0YVzL64lrK46jDWyUx7h0SGhNy...



Enough for now.

R.

@rauliruegas "enough for now"?  Too much for nothing.  Concise is nice.  

So you're a manufacturer hawking your own design?   That doesn't exactly make you an objective source of information.  Since you're not an objective source of information, your credibility is damaged.  Damaged credibility makes your opinions of little value regardless of your EXTREME verbosity.