Vandersteen Sub woofers v Rythmik Subs

ctsooner,

I completely agree with you on loving the sound of the Quads, large Maggie panels and the original Apogees.

Interesting that all of these ’fast’ speakers share the common complaint from owners that they’re all very difficult to integrate subs with. The usual complaint is the sub or subs sound disconnected from the main speakers because the ’slower’ subs cannot keep up with the speed of the ’fast’ panels. I currently use a pair of large Maggie panels in my system and tend to agree with the difficulty of integrating subs well with them.
However, I would definitely suggest the Audio Kinesis Swarm,Debra or any custom 4 sub DBA system as an excellent method of seamlessly integrating a sota bass system with any ’speakers but I can verify they integrate especially well with ’fast’ panels.
Because each Debra sub has a 10" long-throw woofer and is only required to reproduce a portion of the total bass, I think each sub is capable of being very agile and, with all 4 working in concert, it results in bass that is very articulate with great definition.that can reproduce the entire range of bass notes incredibly accurately; from very deep and powerful to sharp and taut.
     I believe anyone listening to any DBA system, whether an Audio Kinesis complete kit or a custom system of someone’s own creation, even briefly would be able to quickly recognize the extreme quality of bass reproduced but it’s much harder for me to express in words.

Tim

one issue is bass is directional above 150 HZ so subs that have much output above 150 HZ , especially those behind you ( in the corners, typically four corners..mess up spatial phase information
so you can trade away that for smoother bass...

for those with digital room correction, IF you rerun do the settings change ? IF so, why ? averaging algorithms? sample weighting, sample stack ? ambient noise ?
for grins, run the RTA w no music on and see what is happening in the room...AC cycling, freezer, trash truck out front.....you will be amazed....

Apogee stages, very fine CT but I guess you and I have shared that story before...

also for grins...just play your subwoofers by themselves sometime.....not on anybodys platinum album list..ha

yes we have had that Apogee discussion, lol.  Those little Stages for the money were money, lmao.  The only subs I liked on Apogees were Apogees. lol.

To my ear, it doesn't matter who's subs you are using and what size they are, they just don't mate with the fast panels I've heard. When you speak about subs with anything above 150hz, I totally agree.  they need to be crossed over in the 100hz range or so.  It's not hard to do.  With larger panels I honestly, don't mind just using the bass they have and letting it go as is.  I"m sure that I'll get to hear Richards new Sub 9's on the large Maggies.  They are fast as heck in the way he designed them, but like the AK's that I haven't heard, I can't comment until I have.  

ctsooner and tomic601,

     I agree with both of you that subs outputting any bass in the 150 Hz range (I would even say any bass of 80 Hz or higher) is directional and can cause issues.  I've experimented with the Debra amp's crossover filter control, adjustable from 10 to 220 Hz, and definitely notice the bass performance and sound staging suffer when crossed over too high.  

     My Magnepan 2.7QR panels are rated as producing bass down to 34 Hz +/- 3 dB.  I think that's fairly accurate but have never measured them.  
     In my room, I've found a low low-pass filter setting works best and  I normally have it set at 40 Hz.  I realize theoretically that leaves an overlap between 34 and 40 Hz , since I run my panels full range, but it still sounds best to me.  
     All 4 subs are run as mono and none have their phase reversed; the Debra manual suggests reversing the polarity on 1 of the 4 subs progressively to verify the bass doesn't sound best in your room with the phase reversed on 1 of the subs.  My setup sounded so amazingly good with all in-phase that I never even bothered with trying this.
     I have absolutely no connection with Audio Kinesis but can honestly tell you that 'm thrilled with how well these dba systems actually provide true sota bass at a reasonable price. 
     You're probably thinking this dba solution sounds too good to be true.  I completely understand this reaction since I was so skeptical when it was originally described to me that I almost didn't buy it.  Thinking back to that time, it's a bit disconcerting how close I came to taking a pass on the Debra, due to cost and space concerns, and how fortunate I now feel that I decided to buy it.  
     It honestly works so well in my room and system that I can't think of any bass quality needing improvement.  I do believe 4 Vandersteen  Sub 9s would provide more bass than the Debra system but I'd really need to compare them to determine which produced better bass in my room. 
    Dbas are ideal bass systems for seamlessly integrating sota bass with any speakers, especially 'fast' panels.  I don't think I'm ever going to need another bass system, even if I switch my main speakers in the future.
Tim