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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
glupson
7,842 posts
 
Michael Green,

I have been thinking about your recent post and HEA paradigm you mentioned and so on. I am a bit slow so I am still simmering my thoughts about it. Kind of like a slow cooker.

I think you recently mentioned that current HEA is full of "over-engineered" products, or something to that effect. If I remembered those words right, what do you mean by that? Not necessarily the brand and model number, but what would be a general sign/idea of an overengineered product?
glupson
7,842 posts
 
geoffkait,

Do not get too upset. My questions are, in general, not addressed to you. So far, you have shown that you do not answer questions. You just babble your way as if nobody else exists. At least as if nobody else exists except for you to try to make fun of them or insult them. Bad boy. If a boy at all.
theaudiotweak
2,801 posts
 
And here at Star Sound we have a published list with prices for over 60 products.. not zero, none or just 2..We have reviews and show awards on several of our designs.

We offer products that serve to enhance the sound and physical performance of select string instruments. These devices are highly considered and reviewed from players around the world.

Here at Star Sound and Tone Acoustics we test and share our science and art to benefit both the high fi system in your home as well as the live performance on stage. This becomes our mutual proving ground. It is our goal to merge the sound of the live performance venue and bring that reality into your home and studio.

The previous may sound like an ad..well we have paid for banner ads as well as posted for sale items in several different catogories going back more than a decade..Some im post ers have paid zilch over that same decade. Are they just freeloaders and users not givers? They may talk but not give. Tom
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Glupson

Did you mean to say "over built"?

Do a browse on some of the smaller amplifier builds and kits, they're all around. An easy example would be Parts Express.

http://www.parts-express.com/cat/audio-amplifier-boards-modules/3464?N=21147+4294967118&Ne=10166&No=0&Nrpp=16&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&PortalID=1

There's probably 20 sites like this throughout the world gaining more amplifier design credibility every day, both solid state and tubes.

The Audiophile world (not HEA necessarily) is changing rapidly and at such a pace that HEA audiophiles are dropping out of the more expensive scene almost at the plinking of an eye. Now you can buy up and down the money scale anything you want, as far as amps & preamps go, sound wise. It's getting to the point where you can either pay for the chassis & some mystery theories or buy stripped down versions (that sound better) for hundreds, even less. Super low mass components and speakers are walking away with the hobby. It's not even up for debate anymore, it's simply a matter of watching it take place. Yep, there is a little debate on the HEA forums but these forums are changing almost overnight.

The question listeners are now asking themselves is "why own complicated components and speakers"? It's truly not 25 years ago. There's no need to build complicated crossovers, and no need for complicated amplifiers, and certainly a bad idea to build over built, complicated, digital. The overbuilt complicated market is falling over the cliff as we speak.

Glupson, you think we are seeing threads on the HEA dying, give it a couple more years when you'll read "what the heck happened". How many 40year olds are interested in huge space heaters for amps? I don't see but a few hands raised do you? This last AXPONA I talked to a few of my friends who are amp and speaker builders. How many products did you sell? 2, 3 maybe 5 if they are lying. Compare this to the 90's when you had salesfolks sitting at the table with the guy or gal taking orders with a couple people waiting in line to place theirs. That's not an opinion that's a fact.

After the anger ends of people trying to desperately hang onto something that is fading we're going to come out on the other side with some great sounding systems, very much like so many people from the early 90's back do. The new components are not going to be big, there's no need for big anymore. I tell folks to look inside of the Sherwood 4105 and the brand X HEA product. No comparison as far as proper real estate goes. I mentioned this too, and I'll ask you. Why after all these years do HEA speakers require such complex crossovers? It's because there are that many problems in the design that needs corrected.

Michael Green

mitch2
4,095 posts
 
I like these forums because I learn something every time I visit.  I actually did some walking a couple of years ago and tried lighter, smaller (i.e., more hip), Class D amplifiers by that guy from Belgium but alas I had to return to my old school, overbuilt, yet somehow complicated,  95 pound each, 300 wpc, in room-heater, Class A  monoblocks.....because they sound much better.  I am surprised to learn I could have simply walked over to Parts Express and bought $20 Class D amplifier boards.  Somehow, I am content to have stopped walking and to instead be sitting in front of an excellent-sounding system.  When is it ok to stop walking?
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