MAC Autoformers?

These are examples of speakers that will not play well on low damping amplifiers due to wide impedance swings or very low impedance demanding excessive current. The density of music where dips occurr is important to how much the speaker will overheat the tubes. These are just in the order that I found them in Stereophile under floor standing speakers. I didnt have to look for long. these are the first 4 measured in order.

Connected to an amplifier with a damping factor of one at eight ohms the following will happen. Where the impedance approaches 20 ohms there will be a 4-5 dB peak at those frequencies. Where the impedance dips below 3 ohms the respoinse will dip 4-5 dB making a total error in frequency response of 8-10 dB. 

In addition if the low impedance occurrs where there is a lot of music the amplifier will current clip and the tubes will get hot.

Click on the link and open in a new tab for a good look.

The Wilson Alexia 2 is still a current-hungry design. Its impedance drops to 2.6 ohms at 84Hz (fig.1), and there is a demanding combination of 5.1 ohms and –44° electrical phase angle at 57Hz, both frequencies in regions where music can have high energy levels.

https://www.stereophile.com/images/718WAlex2fig1.jpg

Eggleston Viginti June 2018 needs to be connected to the 4 ohm tap and will work it hard in the bass where there is lots of energy. Also note how high the impedance is from 1Khz to 8 Khz where a low damping amplifier will cause a 4-6 dB rise in level making the speaker very bright on trumpet music and anything in that region.

 https://www.stereophile.com/images/618EggAndrafig1.jpg

B&W 702  The 702 S2's nominal impedance is specified as 8 ohms, with a minimum value of 3.1 ohms

DO NOT connect this speaker to the 8 ohm tap. 

https://www.stereophile.com/images/518BW702fig1.jpg

Monitor Audio Silver 300, JA notes  "Although the minimum magnitude is 3.6 ohms between 150 and 170Hz and there is a combination of 5.4 ohms and –39° at 97Hz, this speaker won't tax the amplifiers with which it is used".

While this speaker won't tax most SS amps, it will bother a tube amp unless connected to the 4 ohm tap. (RAM)

https://www.stereophile.com/images/318MS300fig1.jpg

Very cool thread ;-)

@ramtubes 

Thanks Roger.  Thought you might find the attached websites of interest.  Atkinson tested an earlier version of my amp, the Ref 150.  The test results should be comparable to my amp, the Ref 150SE, because the Ref 150and Ref 150SE share almost identical electrical characteristics.  

Atkinson uses a simulated speaker load, which is actually kind.  See below.  Impedance doesn't drop much below 8 ohms.  Atkinson measured Ref 150 tap impedance as follows:  "The figures for the 8 ohm tap were 1 and 1.4 ohms; for the 4 ohm tap, they were 0.55 and 0.87 ohm."  Running the Ref 150 into the simulated speaker load, he measured FR as follows:  "From the 8 ohm tap (fig.1, gray trace), it was ±0.8dB; the 4 ohm tap offered ±0.4dB, the 16 ohm tap ±1dB." 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-reference-150-power-amplifier-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/reference/60/index.html

So in summary, I gather that even if speaker impedance swings between 3.9 and 20++ ohms at its peak, it is still better to use the 4 ohm taps because it will draw less current off the output tubes and thereby cause less tube wear and less distortion.  Also, the 4 ohm tap is close tothe bass dip impedance, which is good.  Max power may be compromised at higher impedance, but if I am not pushing the amp, that shouldn't be a problem.

Btw, based on Atkinson's measurements, I gather that if my speakers do dip to approximately 4 ohms in the bass, the damping factor should be roughly 7.27 (4/.55), which ain't too bad.

Am I getting it now??

Btw, ARC uses 14db of negative feedback in ultralinear mode to achieve these electrical characteristics.  The amp is also runs in modified AB mode.

Thanks again,

BIF 

BIF,

Thanks for the info. Let me clairfy this part which many people make the same mistake. 

Max power may be compromised at higher impedance, but if I am not pushing the amp, that shouldn't be a problem.

I've heard this from ESL owners where the impedance rises in the bass to very high values. They believe that OTL amplifiers are better for their speakers because they can supply the extra voltage to drive the high impedance in the bass. They indeed get more bass if the damping factor is low, but not the bass the speaker was designed to give. They get more and perhaps like more but it is one note bass.

Speaker makers are doing a better and better job making speakers have flat response, which is a good thing. To to this they generally let the impedance do what it will. They could add a lot of parts to the crossover to try to flatten the impedance curve but they assume you are using an amplifier with reasonable damping of 10 and above. Ten is not a hard limit but 5 is better than 1.

This is where we get in trouble with the power paradigm which had led people to believe that the speaker wants constant power. It does not. I cannot think of or find a modern speaker that wants constant power, the varying impedance and flat response insure that the designer uses a constant voltage amplifier, ie one with high damping. 

The reason that John Atkinson puts the response with the simulated speaker first is that he and I feel it is the first thing you are going to hear when you audition that amplifier. 

What the power paradigm is saying is that flat response is not as important as ills of feedback. Sorry, but I am not in that camp.  Proper feedback has no ills. The Futterman amplifiers have over 60 dB of feedback and a good reputation. Thats a lot of feedback, more than most transistor amplifiers. I plan to start a thread on the Futterman design when I get done with this topic.

Since everyone hears what they hear and like what they like I would rather not promote one paradigm over the other, I just want to point out what is going on based on my experience and my rules of amplifier and speaker design.

I would rather see all speakers have flat impedance curves but this is not how the world is currently set up. Even the DeVore (which has been recommended) has wide impedance variations.

While I agree with JA and Ralph that it is easy to drive (stays above 8 ohms) its peaks go off the chart above 20 ohms. A damping factor of 1 or 2 or 3 will modify the nicely flat frequency response several dB.

http://https//www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o96-loudspeaker-measurements

Thanks for your question, I hope this clears it up for you and others. Feel free to ask for any further clairication.

C1Ferrari 9-6-2018
Very cool thread ;-)

 +1.  Great thread.  And thanks to Ralph and Roger for providing their informative if somewhat different perspectives.

Roger, regarding...

The Futterman amplifiers have over 60 dB of feedback and a good reputation.

I've seen that stated before, but I'm wondering how an amp can be designed with 60 db of feedback.  Wouldn't its open loop gain have to be enormous to support a closed loop gain that is reasonable?

Best regards,
-- Al

P.S:  Bruce (Bifwynne), great to see you posting again recently.