SAT 30K+$$ TONEARM: W O R T H T O H A V E I T ?


http://www.swedishat.com/

That is the everywhere touted and very expensive tonearm. Touted by all professional reviewers and obviously " satisfied " owners ( around 70 of them. ).

Here some reviews:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/swedish-analog-technologies-tonearm

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/06/sat-swedish-analog-technologies-tonearm.html

http://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/main/press/AirForce%20III_SAT_HiFi+_0817.pdf

and you can look elsewhere the TAS one and others.

Obviously that the proudly owners started to buy the tonearm because those reviews and trhough audio shows but mainly for the " great " reviews.

It was ranked class A in Stereophile and I know are coming two new models that inludes a 12" tonearm.

Other than the very high price I never was interested on the tonearm design due that is totally out of my budget. Its price cost what a decent whole audio system cost.

Anyway, a few months ago in an other analog forum and through a TT review the SAT appeared in that discussion thread and was here when I decided to analize this regarded tonearm design where I found out that those 30K+ dollars are a true money lost and does not matters of what reviewers and owners think about where there are not clear facts all of them are extremely satisfied with the SAT.



Let me explain a little why I said that through my post to MF:


"""""""

from your Stereophile review the SAT specs are as follows: P2S: 212.2mm, overhang: 22.8mm, offset angle 26.10° with an effective length: 235mm.


Those numbers tell us that you are listening ( with any cartridge. ) way higher distortion levels, that you just do not detected even today, against almost any other tonearm/cartridge combination.


Obviously that the SAT needs a dedicated protractor to make the cartridge/tonearm set up but we have to analize what those specs/numbers has to say:

the SAT maximum traking error is a really high: 3.09° when in a normal ( Jelco or Ortofon. ) 235m Effective Length tonearm Löfgren A alignment ( IEC standard. ) is only: 1.84°

the SAT maximum distortion % level is: 2.67 when in that normal tonearm only 0.633

the SAT average RMS % distortion is: 0.616 when in normal tonearm only :
0.412 ( Löfgren B even lower: 0.37 ).

All those makes that the linnear offset in the SAT be 10mm longer than in a normal tonearm ! !

All those are facts and you or Mr. Gomez can’t do nothing to change it. Pure mathematics reality.

You posted in that review: """ Marc Gomez has chosen null points of 80 and 126mm instead of the more commonly used 66 and 121mm. """

that’s a deep misunderstood on tonearm/cartridge alignment input/output calulations in the overall equations used for that alignment:

NULL POINTS WERE NOT CHOOSED BY MR. GOMEZ BUT ARE PART OF THE OUTPUT DATA ON THOSE ALIGNMENTS CALCULATIONS.

In the same is not true your statement: """ the more commonly used 66 and 121mm. """

that " commonly " just does not exist and only depends of the standard choosed for the calculations.

There are several other things in that SAT design that not only are not orthodox but that has a negative influence in what we are listening it:

he said that the tonearm owner can change the bearing friction levels and this characteristics could tell to you that’s a " good thing " but it’s not but all the way the opposite because makes not a fully 100% steady bearings.

Ask you a question?: why the best top cartridges use cantilevers of boron and not carbon fiber, it does not matters that laminated carbon fiber the SAT has.

Carbon fiber is way resonant no matter what. In the past existed cartridges with CF cantilever and sounds inferior to the boron ones. ....................................................................................................................................................................... the designer was and is proud that the tonearm self resonance happens at around 2.8khz, go figure ! ! !. It happens way inside the human been frequency range instead to stays out of that frequency range. """"



Dear friends and owners of the SAT: way before the mounted cartridge on it hits the very first LP groove and against any other vintage or today tonearm you have way higher distortions that per sé preclude you can listen a real and true top quality level performance and does not matters the audio system you own.


What we can listen through the SAT is an inferior quality performance levels with higher distortions. Obviously that all reviewers and owners like those heavy distortions but that does not means they are rigth because and with all respect all of them are wrong.


Some one send the link of what I posted to the SAT designer and latter on ( I do not knew he read my post. ) I ask for him for the information about the effective mass of the SAT. He gave me a " rude " answer and did not disclose that information that in reallity was not important in that moment.



I have to say that at least two professional reviewers bougth the SAT tonearm., both with the Continnum/Cobra TT/tonearm. At least one of them say the SAT outperforms the Cobra one ( maybe both, who knows why bougth it the other reviewer. )

The credentials of the SAT designer are impecable and really impressive ones but no single of those credentials speaks about audio and certainly not on analog audio.

He is a true " roockie " enthusiast ( and I say it with respect.) and obviously that is welcomed in the high-end " arena/area/ring " where all of us are learning at each single day. Any one that’s marketing an audio item has a true merit and this is not under discussion: SAT designer has his own merit for that.

You that are reading this thread permit me to ask: what do you think, overall, about?, at the end audiophiles are the ones that has the last " word " or should be that way.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.






Ag insider logo xs@2xrauliruegas
Moonglum, You wrote: "BTW...your Triplanar has a connector at each end of the phono cable. All you have done is reduced the number of connectors not eliminated them."

Without a doubt, what you say is true. Would you expect me to solder the tonearm wires direct to the cartridge, at one end, and direct to the hot and ground inputs on the phono stage?  The issue at hand is whether reducing the number of connectors to the bare minimum, using presumably very thin wires all the way from cartridge pins to phono stage where the same wires are terminated with male RCAs or XLRs, vs using a removable headshell, which entails the introduction of physical connectors at the headshell times 2 (headshell wires connect to the rear of the headshell and headshell makes additional physical contacts with the mating piece on the arm wand), at the base of the tonearm via DIN or RCA or whatever, and then on to the phono stage, using RCA or XLR there.  

John Ellison pointed out on VA that by allowing for the extra connectors introduced by the headshell, one can actually reduce the total resistance seen by the phono signal, compared to using 33ga wires all the way from cartridge to phono inputs.  He seemed also to believe that the lower the resistance, the better or less distorted would be the SQ.  My own experience tells me that eliminating as many connectors as possible always sounds better, notwithstanding the slight penalty for added R.  You could say this is my opinion based on my years in this hobby. It is important to note that in terms of pure resistance, we are talking about a difference of less than 0.5 ohms, using John's calculation, which I don't doubt, albeit I found a slightly lower number than he did for the 4 feet of 33ga straight wire option (~0.8 ohms vs ~1.0 ohms).  You can read the relevant posts from me and Halcro, above.  I also pointed out that there is no imperative about using 33ga wire from one end to the other in the minimal connector scenario.  One could get away with 28ga wire, for example, and this would reduce the gap in resistance between the two approaches, if resistance is a bugaboo.  (John assumed one foot of 33ga wire [disregarding the two added physical connections in series with the signal in his scenario], followed by 3 feet of 26ga wire.  He compared the total R for that to the total R for 4 feet of 33ga wire.) 

I have also pointed out that many phono stage gain devices are wired with discrete resistors in series with their inputs, to prevent oscillation.  The values of such resistors are typically about 100 ohms or more.  This totally swamps the difference in total R between the two wiring options, so I cannot imagine why resistances in that order of magnitude would make much difference. But if I am entitled to my opinion, the other guys are also entitled to theirs.

You seem to be asking me to say how I arrived at my own opinion.  I guess this is due to an accumulation of several experiences.  One such was in connection with my Triplanar.  When I bought it (from a reviewer), it came with the external in-line termination box that offered female RCA outputs.  After listening to it for several months or even a year, I then had it re-wired by Herb Papier, the inventor of the Triplanar, with about 4 feet of 33ga Cardas wire going from cartridge to male XLRs that plug directly into my balanced phono stage.  The original wire was also Cardas 33ga, so there would be no SQ difference per se attributed to changing the wire.  Using a Koetsu Urushi, it was and is my subjective impression that the tonearm sounds better using the direct connection.  These days, I own several tonearms, some that use the straight shot wiring and some with removable headshells.  I generally find that for LOMC cartridges, I prefer the tonearms with straight connection vs the tonearms with removable headshells. For higher output cartridges, I agree with what I think Halcro said; I hear no difference.
Dear @jeff1225 @daveyf : I was banned from several audio forums over the net including WBF and in reality I was banned more because very low music/audio knowledge levels/ignorance levels there that for insult to other gentlemans.

I don’t use the word " idiot " with any one and and word " stupid " almost never not even many years ago when I was as an " hurricane " attitude and always trying to win. A stupid person is a person with very high ignorance levels in some music/sound subjects and that is not abble to learn through the time and that never grows up and likes to stay everywhere/forums showing his stupidity level.

Anyway, the removable headshell design against the fixed one has several issues other that high or lower distortions because of that.

The real issue here is not whom has the reason but which trade offs are better for the MUSIC sound reproduction.

Btw, from some of those forums were I was banned people thoughts were that I was and am a troll when in reality I’m not.
Yes sometimes I " sound " like a troll but only because sometimes I need to push for annswers obvious answers that could permit to go more deeper in the main subject under analizis.
With out a matured dialogue no one of us ( including me. ) can’t learn almost nothing.

My self target is to improve my self MUSIC/audio knowledge levels that means to lower my ignorance levels in several subjects.
How any one of us can groiw up if always are entilted with our believes and just do not " open/opened " our mind to other gentlemans experiences. Just can’t do it.

For several years now I read VA and DYERS forums where there are great experts of almost everything that have very high technical knowledge levels and skild that I can’t ever dream to have it.
I never participated down there I only learn in those forums and try to learn or confirm if my believes are wrong or just fine.

As Ellison in VA is a top top gentleman that I think every one knows for his very very high technical levels: Kelly.

It’s not the only sample of gentlemans that when they " talk " every one ( as me. ) just close mouth and open ears/mind. Kelly posted in the past in Agon and one of the latest great knowledge level gentleman was Wyn Palmer that maybe you can remember him was in May/June in this forum and he came here for the very first time and have a dialogue with other two well regarded Agon gentlemans that just can’t proved to him their theories and he proved why them were not rigth, this Wyn not only posted his very high technical knowledge but he has on hand a real time electronic/electrical modeling and posted about to prove why he said what he said. He worked for several years as an engineer in nothing less than designing devices for Analog Devices.

That’s kind of gentlemans ’m talking about that can help every one to grow up, to understand why we are wrong in several of our entilted believes and why we are rigth in other ones.

R.
Raul, Granted everything you just wrote above, and with all due respect, what is your point?  
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