SAT 30K+$$ TONEARM: W O R T H T O H A V E I T ?


http://www.swedishat.com/

That is the everywhere touted and very expensive tonearm. Touted by all professional reviewers and obviously " satisfied " owners ( around 70 of them. ).

Here some reviews:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/swedish-analog-technologies-tonearm

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/06/sat-swedish-analog-technologies-tonearm.html

http://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/main/press/AirForce%20III_SAT_HiFi+_0817.pdf

and you can look elsewhere the TAS one and others.

Obviously that the proudly owners started to buy the tonearm because those reviews and trhough audio shows but mainly for the " great " reviews.

It was ranked class A in Stereophile and I know are coming two new models that inludes a 12" tonearm.

Other than the very high price I never was interested on the tonearm design due that is totally out of my budget. Its price cost what a decent whole audio system cost.

Anyway, a few months ago in an other analog forum and through a TT review the SAT appeared in that discussion thread and was here when I decided to analize this regarded tonearm design where I found out that those 30K+ dollars are a true money lost and does not matters of what reviewers and owners think about where there are not clear facts all of them are extremely satisfied with the SAT.



Let me explain a little why I said that through my post to MF:


"""""""

from your Stereophile review the SAT specs are as follows: P2S: 212.2mm, overhang: 22.8mm, offset angle 26.10° with an effective length: 235mm.


Those numbers tell us that you are listening ( with any cartridge. ) way higher distortion levels, that you just do not detected even today, against almost any other tonearm/cartridge combination.


Obviously that the SAT needs a dedicated protractor to make the cartridge/tonearm set up but we have to analize what those specs/numbers has to say:

the SAT maximum traking error is a really high: 3.09° when in a normal ( Jelco or Ortofon. ) 235m Effective Length tonearm Löfgren A alignment ( IEC standard. ) is only: 1.84°

the SAT maximum distortion % level is: 2.67 when in that normal tonearm only 0.633

the SAT average RMS % distortion is: 0.616 when in normal tonearm only :
0.412 ( Löfgren B even lower: 0.37 ).

All those makes that the linnear offset in the SAT be 10mm longer than in a normal tonearm ! !

All those are facts and you or Mr. Gomez can’t do nothing to change it. Pure mathematics reality.

You posted in that review: """ Marc Gomez has chosen null points of 80 and 126mm instead of the more commonly used 66 and 121mm. """

that’s a deep misunderstood on tonearm/cartridge alignment input/output calulations in the overall equations used for that alignment:

NULL POINTS WERE NOT CHOOSED BY MR. GOMEZ BUT ARE PART OF THE OUTPUT DATA ON THOSE ALIGNMENTS CALCULATIONS.

In the same is not true your statement: """ the more commonly used 66 and 121mm. """

that " commonly " just does not exist and only depends of the standard choosed for the calculations.

There are several other things in that SAT design that not only are not orthodox but that has a negative influence in what we are listening it:

he said that the tonearm owner can change the bearing friction levels and this characteristics could tell to you that’s a " good thing " but it’s not but all the way the opposite because makes not a fully 100% steady bearings.

Ask you a question?: why the best top cartridges use cantilevers of boron and not carbon fiber, it does not matters that laminated carbon fiber the SAT has.

Carbon fiber is way resonant no matter what. In the past existed cartridges with CF cantilever and sounds inferior to the boron ones. ....................................................................................................................................................................... the designer was and is proud that the tonearm self resonance happens at around 2.8khz, go figure ! ! !. It happens way inside the human been frequency range instead to stays out of that frequency range. """"



Dear friends and owners of the SAT: way before the mounted cartridge on it hits the very first LP groove and against any other vintage or today tonearm you have way higher distortions that per sé preclude you can listen a real and true top quality level performance and does not matters the audio system you own.


What we can listen through the SAT is an inferior quality performance levels with higher distortions. Obviously that all reviewers and owners like those heavy distortions but that does not means they are rigth because and with all respect all of them are wrong.


Some one send the link of what I posted to the SAT designer and latter on ( I do not knew he read my post. ) I ask for him for the information about the effective mass of the SAT. He gave me a " rude " answer and did not disclose that information that in reallity was not important in that moment.



I have to say that at least two professional reviewers bougth the SAT tonearm., both with the Continnum/Cobra TT/tonearm. At least one of them say the SAT outperforms the Cobra one ( maybe both, who knows why bougth it the other reviewer. )

The credentials of the SAT designer are impecable and really impressive ones but no single of those credentials speaks about audio and certainly not on analog audio.

He is a true " roockie " enthusiast ( and I say it with respect.) and obviously that is welcomed in the high-end " arena/area/ring " where all of us are learning at each single day. Any one that’s marketing an audio item has a true merit and this is not under discussion: SAT designer has his own merit for that.

You that are reading this thread permit me to ask: what do you think, overall, about?, at the end audiophiles are the ones that has the last " word " or should be that way.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.






Ag insider logo xs@2xrauliruegas
My SME IV has cartridge pins connected to Cardas wiring which is connected to a Cardas RCA junction box, eliminating at least the DIN connector and providing for a more flexible choice of phono cables.  DIN connectors are tough to solder.  I've upgraded phono cables four times in 20 years to very low capacitance, highly shielded cables.
@rauliruegas

I understand that you are translating into English and then posting. Unfortunately, you are perhaps either misunderstanding, or simply missing some of the insults that are being thrown out there towards myself and other members. As an example, the word ’troll’ is an insult. There are always posters who immediately begin insulting others IF their opinions of the gear that they favor comes into question! We have seen that on this forum and on other forums as well. While i agree with you that the most prudent thing to do is to " turn the other cheek" , that is something that I and many others are unwilling to do IF the moderators do NOT step in! Luckily, on this forum, the moderation is good and as such, i rarely have to respond to the ’ad hominem’ attacker. But, occasionally, there is a post that slips through...like all forums.

As to expanding our knowledge base, that goes without saying. All of us can always aspire to that...
Also, remember this....your music may in fact be someone else’s distortion...and those that you might consider to be an expert, others may consider to be a neophyte.Please think about that before reposting your reply.

Also, remember this....your music may in fact be someone else’s distortion...

Well said, i think his favorite music is Cannon Shots on Telark 812 
Dear @daveyf : " remember this....your music may in fact be someone else’s distortion..."""

yes, that happens with every one of us but always exist " but ".
What happens if through the years you were building your room/system with a main traget: to put at minimum every where the room/system every kind of distortions at minimum where some of those distortions even disappeared and others are way down the room/system noise floor?

First than all to achieve all those you must be trained/self educated to identify all those kind of distortions and need to learn at least two things: from where are developed and what to do to fix it when you can fix it or put at minimum.
All those is a day by day job and your room/system will improves as you learn the better and when you are " there " then you can be sure that your system/room has lower distortions than the majority of the other gentlemans room/systems. To be sure about you have to have a very good evaluation room/system proccess.

So, in your statement my " music " in reality in true are distortions for other people and their music are only higher distortion because their main target is not to put at minimum the room/system distortions but other targets as can be ( example ) : what they like it.

""" and those that you might consider to be an expert, others may consider to be a neophyte. """

well, at technical levels those gentlemans I named that you can find out in VA as Kelly or Ellison are truly experts in their technical areas. As lewm pointed out Ellison is very good in tonearm/cartridge alignment and if you have good knowledge levels on that kind of subject you can’t name him a neophyte.

I read or ask to experts when my ignorance levels are really low in some music/audio subjects but an expert will be always an expert till one day some other one can prove with facts and with out single doubt that he is totally wrong.

In some technical subjects @dgarretson is a true expert and in those subjects no one can tell he is neophyte.

Months ago in the Agon technical forum I made some questions to a gentleman that down there and the audio subject he is an expert unfortunatelly he did not help me and I still think he is an expert.

Well, two days ago I was in touch with Mike Kelly ( other Kelly not the VA one. ) designer and owner of speakers Aerial Acoustic company, this was the second time I asked something in the last 20+ years.
Things are that he is the designer of my ADS L2030 speakers and was ADS designer chief before he started his today own company. I asked something I want to do with my speakers and he was kind enough to gave me a truly great advises about. Now I'm in " trouble " because I'm looking money to follow his advise.
I always like to ask experts and in this case no one else than the " source " him self.
For others can be a neophyte in those speakers?, certainly not.

In general always exist other experts with different knowledge levels ( higher and lower. ) than your own experts but not for that an expert can be degraded at " neophyte ".

R.
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