Cartridge new or used ?

Dear @audiosens and friends: I think almost all was already posted and I would like to add some comments about:

as @lewm ( and I think @daveyf  ) pointed out no one of us but only cartridge manufacturers/re-tippers can know for sure if the stylus tip/suspension is in good condition with hours coming to play, no one else no matter what. Period. 

From some years now no one cartridge designer/manufacturer has to envy vintage materials or cartridge technology in any way.
Today stylus shapes are better one and with better quality excecution and more tigth tolerances. Cantilever materials are too superior as the boron rod ( instead hollow that is more resonant/distorted. ) over berilyum and cartridge body materials blend superior too. Better material at the wire coils and shapes as the magnets too.

Yes, exist really good vintage cartridges that in the LOMC designs can compete against the best today ones but that is not the rule.

I own/owned/tested vintage and today MM/MI/LOMC cartridges and I know for sure what I'm talking too. Obviously that to be aware of that we need to own not only a high resolution system but with very very low overall distortions and that be a true full range audio system.

Happy New Year  2 0 1 9   for all of you and your dearest family   ! !

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@rauliruegas You bring up a great point, and one that I agree with 100%. That point is that the factory really is the only one to truly determine the condition of the stylus/suspension. The various stylus/cantilever manufacturers know what it is that they manufacture, and what the facets of the diamond should like, new and under basic wear patterns. This is really the point that I have been trying to get across, and I think your post said it very well.

Everyone if free to decide what is better, but only after the actual comparison of the cartridges in the system. That would be fair. Some people on here commended on something they never tried or on something they had bad luck with.

For me it’s obvious that my top of the line vintage MM/MI cartridges in NOS (unused, mainly from the 80’s) or lightly used are better and (surprise) cheaper than some top of the line modern LOMC that i’ve tried up to $5k range. Most of the absolutely amazing and extremely rare MM cartridges are still under $1.5k, some of the spectacular MM/MI are under $700 which is simply amazing in this world where manufacturers asking prices for modern MC can be $15k easily. Well, i am not crazy to pay $15k for a cartridge, no matter which super-duper materials did they used.

Stylus replacement option for MM cartridges is one of the reason to accept lighlty used samples. I was lucky to find some deadstock NOS styli for the rarest Grace or Audio-Technica best and most expensive models from the 80’s. So i don’t need a re-tipper with his third-party parts for the rare carts, i’m happy to stick to the original NOS styli utilized some exotic cantilevers and diamonds.

If the end or the road for any cartridge is SoundSmith re-tip service then i just don’t understand why not stick to the SoundSmith own cartridges if many of you really think that he can repair every cartridge using his different (compared to the original) parts to make it equal or even better than the original? If some of you are fine with refurbished carts aka frankensteins then please find J.Carrs comments about fundamental aspects of the cartridge design (the calculation that every cartridge designer made to decide on cantilever and stylus type or mass etc).

If someone can’t afford very expensive factory service for your overpriced LOMC then don’t buy it. If some of you are happy with third-party service and completely different materials or methods of the re-tipper (which wipe away all the calculations made by the original designer) then why do you think such refurbished cartridge is better than fully original top of the line MM/MI with genuine stylus replacement ?

Modern MM is out of fashion in audiophiles world, manufacturers does not care about it much, because the profit is low compared to the MC, let’s face it. This is the reason why MM/MI from the 70’s/80’s are so amazing.

And finally: When people are talking about resonance and distortion of the equipment, i would ask a question how many of you guys (or those reviewers) has treated the rooms with diffusors, absorbers, bass traps etc ? Acoustic treatment of the listening room is far more important, otherwise we’re dealing with so many reflections, stadning waves etc. Normally i see room treatment in the recording or mastering studios, but not in audiophiles home. Funny, but i’ve never seen any acoustic treatment in the rooms where those "professional reviewers" judging very expensive high-end equipment.

Happy New Year! 

@chakster 

Modern MM is out of fashion in audiophiles world, manufacturers does not care about it much, because the profit is low compared to the MC, let’s face it. This is the reason why MM/MI from the 70’s/80’s are so amazing. 

I disagree. Modern moving magnet cartridge technology benefits from the latest refinements in material, design and manufacturing techniques that didn’t exist in the 80’s, when those processes were relatively inefficient.

Fashion in the audiophile world doesn’t equate to outright performance, much less value, but there are coincidences.

The microline styli found on relatively inexpensive cartridges such as the Audio-Technica VM540ML (mslp $250) and VM740ML (mslp $330) are vastly superior conical and elliptical profiles in all respects. They are similar in performance to the vaunted Shibata profile, but with much better stylus longevity. All this in “unfashionable” moving magnet design, but still able to deliver excellent performance along with good value.

In my eyes, this combination of performance:value is very relevant, dare I say fashionable. 

I disagree. Modern moving magnet cartridge technology benefits from the latest refinements in material, design and manufacturing techniques that didn’t exist in the 80’s, when those processes were relatively inefficient.

No, try to find any new cartridge with Hollow Pipe Boron Cantilever, Beryllium cantilever, Diamond cantilever for under $500. Wish you good luck on it :)

The microline styli found on relatively inexpensive cartridges such as the Audio-Technica VM540ML (mslp $250) and VM740ML (mslp $330) are vastly superior conical and elliptical profiles in all respects. They are similar in performance to the vaunted Shibata profile, but with much better stylus longevity. All this in “unfashionable” moving magnet design, but still able to deliver excellent performance along with good value.

Right, the Audio-Technica is a great manufacturer even today, their cartridges are reasonably priced and they are very good, but if you will compare those new MM to the best AT moving magnets from the 80s (like the Audio-Technica AT-ML180) you will understand why this example can be sold for $2-3k today in NOS condition.

The question is not about the MicroLine profile, but also about the cantilever and definitely about the generator. Try to find an AT cartridge with hollow pipe Boron or hollow pipe Beryllium cantilever with a nude diamond of extremely low mass. They did it back in the 80s. I’ve owned many AT cartridges, inspected cantilevers styli under my macro lens. The new AT cartridges are different, but not better. As many other manufacturers the diamond is simply glued to the cantilever with relatively big amount of glue around the tip, i saw that on my Audio-Technica ART-2000 LOMC which was a great MC cartridge, but the AT-ML180 from the 80’s killing it, and it’s MM design, just look at the construction and check the specs here. They made two different versions of that cartridge.

In this thread i have posted an images to compare old (dynavector) and new (soundsmith) ruby cantilevers, you will see that the new method is simplified compared to the old method (much more complicated and more expensive method). I do not see a progress, only regress, i think it’s because of the cartridge demands was much higher in the 70s/80s than today. It was an analog era. Even taking in count an awful price strategy of today’s high-end, the quality of the best vintage cartridges from the analog era are better, well at least to my ears ( and i’m not alone on this forum with this statement).

P.S. I hate conical/spherical profiles, i don’t use cartridges with conical stylus profile at all. I have a few elliptical and hyper elliptical which are really good, but most of my favorite MM or MC cartridges are Line Contact type (Stereohedron, Shibata, Replicant 100, Fritz Gyger, Paroc, MicroRidge depends on the patent).

Grace back in the days made all kind of cantilevers for their LEVEL II and F-14 cartridges: Alluminum, Boron Pipe, Sapphire, Ruby and even Ceramic which is the rarest cantilever ever made.