Thiel Owners

hi Todd,  i may be over my head here but there are two kinds of phase that I know of.  One is absolute phase which is easy to test with the Reference recordings burn in and test cd.  that shows if something is hooked up incorrectly and thus out of phase.  the other is much tougher as the only way to know is to have a button on the preamp or DAC (my PS DAC has it) where you just test for in phase or out of phase.   this has more to do with the recording than anything in your system. 

Phase is used to mean different things. The signal reversal that ronkent mentions is actually polarity, where the entire signal is switched plus for minus. That is straightforward to troubleshoot. Put a 4 volt DC signal way up front in your signal chain and your speakers should push forward into the room. (except that some crossover types push some and pull the others. So, use the woofer as your guide.) The "button test" identifies whether the recording is right or backwards. This is also polarity (called absolute phase). Proper polarity will sound focused and reversed polarity will sound diffused. Negative polarity is now generally considered an error, but it happens.
The stuff I am talking about references the phase relationships among the harmonic structure of the signal. That's a real rat's nest which the user can't unscramble. Those ratty problems are generally ameliorated by speakers which scramble phase - higher order networks are already asking your brain to unscramble and there simply isn't enough processing power to further decode what's going on in the actual signal. Higher order networks are in that way forgiving - more recordings with more problems will sound better, or at least their evils will go unnoticed.

Please note that I recognize my opinions as being marginal. On a panel of audio engineering experts, I would be crucified or perhaps kindly tolerated. However, on a panel of aural neuroscientists, I would get at least polite inquiries regarding my observations.

ronkent - that live album at Stony Mountain is a normally produced remote recording, pretty good as they go. Her studio albums have higher audiophile values. Above I described the first Dancing at the Gate, later Will Ackerman produced Color of Light which has his (as in usual Windham Hill) high production values, but uses 18 mics and lots of gizmos and signal manipulation to get "his sound". That is the album where Dana and I "caught" (on CS2.2 / Classe) numerous, ongoing plugs and other artifacts which Will with his $multimillion studio insisted couldn't be heard. Then Dana produced locally "Above the Fields", which is very carefully and well done and can take you there.

If you like solo piano and have a contemplative streak, I highly recommend Dana's work.

hi Tom,   thanks for the clarification on phase, absolute phase, and all those other phase things.  i had mixed up polarity with phase but your comments make me realize how many things can go wrong in the process.   Also thanks for the info on DC.  I will have to get the Dancing album.  your comment about WH was interesting as i found many of their albums clean but not real sounding.  My fave artist on WH was Michael Hedges who was such a great talent and gone way to soon

As others have posted I too am casually looking to upgrade my 10 year old 2.4CS speakers. I took a pretty long break from audio. I just picked up other hobbies but I am starting to get the bug again (used headphones for a year or two in there too).  

Anyway after a hand full of demos of speakers costing at lot more I came home to feel they were simply a side step from my Thiels in some ways and that I would be paying a lot of money for slightly more resolution in the upper mids/highs. I did find the new speakers with new tweeter designs to be a good bit better in the highs though. More air and less matter of fact kind of detail I get from the Thiels. 

I should mention I run two JL audio e112 subs actively crossed over at 50hz and it takes the Thiels to a whole new level. They are cheap and plenty good enough for the 2.4 or 3.7s. Well worth a try for any thiel owner with a large room. 

The other day I listened to a pair of b&w 802D3 for just a song or two and the bass was not as good as the slam or quality I get from my 2.4s with subs. The highs and mids were very detailed, almost hyper detailed but my ears gave up fast and I tagged out. I will not be buying B&Ws, just too bright and a little unnatural sounding. 

A long time ago I got the older b&w 802D2 in the same room same system as a pair of thiel 3.7s and I remember the 802D2s bass being stronger so adding subs has greatly changed my Thiels and should not be over looked if you don’t mind the extra wires and clutter. 

I also tried the sonus faber olympica iii on classes amps this week for a few songs for something different and while nice they did not inspire me. They look amazing though but for $13,000 they are pretty meh. Might still be worth a real audition as my dealer is super close and I like to work with them if possible but first impression is that they are over priced. 

My dealer has the paradigm personas on the floor. Not sure the models but one set was $35k-ish and the other was $10k so I might give them a try. I don’t like the plastic look of them though. Maybe with my subs I could get away with the $10k model. 

I am playing with the idea of buy a pair of wilsons used. I always liked the Sophia 3 and Sasha and used they are now in my price range. I also might try to run down a pair of focal sopra 2s to try. 

I have kind of gotten out of audio and I am much more sensible on what I want to spend. I am probably looking at around $10k, new or used and will be keeping the subs in the system. 

My other local dealer carries revels and has the salon 2 and F228be on the floor so I will try those too. Last time I heard the salon 2 I was impressed but non engaged emotionally. Not sure why. 

At this point my demos have just made me appreciate how good the 2.4s are for the money or maybe my priorities have changed enough that little improvements don’t impress me these days.